Sunday, October 08, 2006

David-Stone: Defensive Rolling Stone

Had it not been for the burst of the military bubble of Israel, Egypt would not have got its land back. Lebanon now has the same options. Israel paralysed half of Lebanon and destroyed 10 billion dollars worth of Infrastructure, a bunch of Lebanese guys parlayed northern Israel & its economy, and their economic losses are comparable, and the cost of war is not cheap for them either - 2 billion dollars of weapons.

Israel has forever boasted it can destroy the whole country. It still can, but this country will not stand still. I have strong reserve on "who" fights the defensive war, but I have no doubt that we should be always ready to give our neighbour to the south a strong kick in the mid-section if it gets macho. I propose to call the defensive plan - the David-Stone, a small stone between the eyes of the military giant once that beast gets aggressive.

I do not believe in peace with Israel, I do believe in a truce - until such a time that Israel truly moves towards peace. I believe the same applies to all Arabs and Israel. I repeat, until proven otherwise, Israel should not be trusted. On the other hand, running an endless war is futile to us at least. War from our part is only a means to set the record straight. After peace, we should always be careful. Israel cannot be trusted.

A clarification, I do not believe in Israel's right to exist as a principle, but I am also pragmatic. Now that it's there, we have to find a way to live with it with a pinch of salt, or a squeeze of lemon. The interim solution: two states. Long term solution, one state for the two people (secular, non-ethnic). Final solution - one state, and one people. Those would be called the Palestinian people (or call them any name), a multiethnic people, and multi-denominational one as well. Jews, Christians, Muslims etc. Some of the new-Palestinian people would have been originally Arab, and the others would have come a long time ago from Poland, Germany, Yemen, and Morocco etc. Timeframe? Hopefully 60 years. Crusades have done that, they came as Fredrick and Wolfgang, now they are called Mohammed and Elias. Let's put it into testing: Motche Kassav is called Moussa Kassab. Actually, the earlier pronunciation of the name sound like a sneeze compared to the rhythmic Arabic.

Another interesting fact, part of the Crusades and their settlements moved back to Europe, those who stayed integrated with their surrounding. I know that Arab airlines are acquiring A380s en-mass, in short, they can move a million people a month if they need to. Possible destinations: Madagascar for Climate, Europe for Culture.

138 comments:

  1. Fadi,

    First, thanks for being pragmatic.
    A few questions:
    1) The Lebanese cannot integrate 500,000 palestinians into Lebanon even though they are Arabs yet you expect the Palestinians to integrate with the Jews. If the Lebanese can't do it, why do you think the Jews can?
    2) Once there is a two state solution, what incentive would there be to continue to a two state one? Why would the Israelis not just stay with the two state solution? Why not just support the two state solution as the best and only realistic solution?
    3) Why would Israel give Lebanon land for a truce? There is already a truce based on the 49 cease fire agreements and now there is also UNIFIL. What if anything additional is Lebanon giving Israel? The only thing Israel wants from Lebanon is to disarm HA and that cannot happen without a Lebanese civil war and therefore will not happen. Except for peace, Lebanon has nothing to offer to Israel.

    I may be wrong on this but I think you have not made up your mind about the Palestinian issue. On the one hand it seems you don't want to fight Israel anymore but on the other hand you feel guilty about abandoning the Palestinians to stand alone against Israel. Well, you can't have it both ways. If you want truce, you need to let the Palestinians fight their own fight. Otherwise you get 1982 all over again.

    e

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  2. You're funny guy, look how much time you people invest in thinking how to eliminate Israel. The sooner you accept the fact that we are here to stay and that we arent going anywhere (no, not to Tunis, Madagascar or Poland) the better your life becomes, because instead of spending your time, money and energy trying to destroy someone else's country you'd spend it on improving your own, but apparently this isnt going to happen any time soon, so while you remain backwards and pathetic Israel will continue to prosper.

    Ramadan kareem!

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  3. Ramban,

    Let me worry how i spend my time, energy, or money. I have plenty - and as long I am spending the above writing, YOU should be grateful.

    As for backward and pathetic, maybe I am, but who are you to say? An outcast doubling as a Racist suprimest? interesting combination.

    You said it right, "Israel" is not going anywhere anytime SOON, but it WILL eventually.

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  4. Not at all Fadi! If I appear racist I am deeply sorry ;) just out of concern for you, I hate to see how the Muslim world cant develop and keeps blaming everything from rain to bad music on the big bad Zionist entity, stepping on the spot without advancing. Israel is not going anywhere not now, not tommorrow and not in a thousand years, just accept it, I'm sure your grandparents were also certian that Israel will dissappear under the Arab tank tracks in 48 and your parents thought the same in 67 and 73 and since then nothing has moved in your way of thinking, you still believe that the next Salah a-din will come tommorrow and kill all the Jews. Wake up me friend, it's just not going to happen, and the sooner you accept it the better you will be off.

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  5. Fadi,
    Why do you think that it is racist to suggest that unless people invest energy in improving themselves they will remain backward? It is just common sense. As for Jews being outcasts, you are absolutely right. That is why we need a country of our own so people won't bother us.

    Nothing is forever, not even the US. So what? How long do you plan to live and can the fact that Israel may disappear in 200 years support 8 generations of fighting and suffering?

    You didn't answer the questions from my first comment...

    e

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  6. e,

    Sorry for the delay, I was traveling with little time to blog. (and not on Camelback Ramban).

    To answer the points you raised:

    1) Lebanon cannot integrate 500K Palestinians not because it cannot, but because they have their own country to go back to. The Jews can, or eventually will, because they live on those people's land. Least they can do is to share-peacefully, as we both should agree war or tension are not fruitful. Lebanon did integrate Armenians, and hundreds of thousands of those who gained citizenship in the 1990s. It doesn’t want to, neither do the Palestinians I must add. The Palestinians can and will continue to live in Lebanon if they wish, but they will live so a nationals of another state – State of Palestine, and not as refugees because of another state, now called Israel.

    2) Incentive to Israeli IS to move away from the two state solutions gradually. Time, common interests, and demographics would eventually play a role. The whole region will become "unified" least of all in a socio-economic context. Borders are no longer barriers. God forgive me for saying this now, (I make it no secret that I oppose the existence of Israel, but not that it's there...) - it is in the best interest of Israel to integrate. It is not an island. Whatever makes “Israel” a political protégé of the United States, the superpower of the time, is not eternal. Super-powers change, so do US politics, and interests.

    3) Israel should give Lebanon land and rights in return for no-war (hence truce). Despite the immeasurable variance in the use of weapons between both sides, we both agree that Israel was not really basking in bliss during the last war. Let’s say that both parties would give in a little in return for peace of mind.

    I have to be clear: my mind IS made up on the Palestinian Issue. First, it is a matter of principle. I also support the Armenian Rights of compensation and return to their lands in Turkey, the Turkish Cypriots right to live in southern Cyprus, and the Greek Cypriots right of return and compensation to their lands etc.. – it is a principle.

    Second, but of COURSE I believe in fighting Israel, I just do not believe in using force to do that. Nor bloodshed or violence, whether drowning Israelis in the sea, nuking them with Plutonium, or even tickling them into oblivion. Israel is until now a malignant and unjustified growth in this area. I think, It has an option to turn into a benign one, and then to integrate and add to the prosperity and diversity of this region, which brings us to the third option, I believe in cultural and racial interaction and intermixing. Being a Jew is not a disease that requires quarantine inside a state called “Israel.”

    If all three options fail, I am sorry to say that I will not be the one who is calling the shots in either direction... Look around and you will see that the world is not getting any safer, and that the Palestinians inside and around Israel are not getting any fewer, neither did Israel make any friends among its immediate environs of the Arab people (save two or three rulers). Arabs are neither pathetic nor backwards to use Ramban’s argument, and if they are, they will not be so forever! Better, have pathetic backward friends than pathetic or backward nuisance, or worse - Strong and Advanced enemies.

    Times Change. They did for the Israelis; bet you they will change for their enemies.

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  7. Ramban,
    Apology accepted. Not being a racist is not excuse of Ignorance. Arabs detest Israel, and that's not secret, hence they view it as source of all evil. Now you have to make up your mind: Arabs or Muslims? You make the same ignorant assumption as you try to criticize: Arabs and Muslims are not moving anywhere, Jews/Israelis/what have you - are the source of all evil.

    Read my comments below. Neither you or I can say what will happen in a thousand years.

    My grandparents believed that right shall prevail at the end. My parents did the same, and my grand grand children will do also. They told me to keep trying no matter what.

    Saladin did not kill Jews. If there were to be another Saladin, he wouldn't either. The problem is the lack of Saladins, not the excess supply of them.

    I'm sure that the Jews who left Jerusalem in 70-80 A.D. because of the Romans (..not Arabs, or Saldain), believed they will come back to Jerusalem. The power of belief got them back after 1850 years. Now I am not saying they should not be back, I'm saying they two things:
    1- They were right on ethical grounds until they made themselves the Romans and the Palestinians the Jews in Diaspora. They made victims of those who had nothing to do with their original tragedy (&dont give me any two state in 1947 talk). I am saying ETHICALLY.

    2- Dreams and believes DO come true, 1850 years later..

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  8. Fadi,
    Can you be more specific about any additional guarantees that Lebanon can give Israel? I really don't think there is much more Lebanon can give or do at this point without incurring a civil war. Isn't the current state already a state of de-facto truce?
    e

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  9. e
    I answered you before I read your comments on racism etc.. Our comments crossed.

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  10. Fadi,
    By the way, the Zionist movement was initially completely secular and not based on 1850 year old dreams.

    Herzl initally wanted Jews to integrate into Europe. The Dreyfus trial changed his mind. His thinking was that if the most progressive Europeans as the French were could be so antisemitic, the chances of Jews thriving in Europe were slim. Boy, was he right.

    Since 1967 there is in my opinion a unhealthy messianic form of Zionism but it emerged rather late.

    The Jews needed a country. The Palestinians got screwed big time in the process. Almost nobody alive today is responsible for any of the historical facts. Most Israelis were born after 1967 and became adults after 1982.

    Just as I don't hold Germans today responsible for the holocaust, I would like to suggest that you consider Israelis today not responsible for what happened in 48. Israel is just the sum of its people. So if several million people talk a certain language and view themselves a certain nation, why would you deny them the right for a country because of their history?

    Most of my family was killed by the Germans in wwII and all my family's posessions were taken by the Poles. The people that did these things are long dead and I am not going to fight their decendants because they are just not responsible.

    And if you think we should move somewhere else, we are willing to discuss this. First though please give us a realistic option (I like Madagascar :) )

    e

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  11. e

    You are welcome in my home, and in my city, and in my country as a guest or as a perminent residence, or even as a citizen one day. But not an invader or usurper. I always use the Armenian Example. How many armenians were victims of hate crime across the Arab world since 1915? NONE. Jews have always been part of the Arab and Islamic culures and an integral part of the social and cultural formation. They had a better chance of integration. I am saying they still DO.

    I do not hold the Israelis responsible for what happened in 1948, I hold them fully responsible for letting it GO on. It's not a fait-accompli. Suffering is still ongoing, so are the camps, so is the loss of property, dignity, and life. I hold them responsible for the "new jews in Diaspora" - AKA palestinians.

    I am sorry about your family. My point exactly, pain and fear drives people out of lands, and out of their minds. What goes around comes around, and a victim turned oppressor is more evil. Jews were victims turned opressors. Mind you, I am not saying that the Arabs will not turn out to be worst opressors in the future. I am afraid of EXACTLY that. Harsh as the picture might be, getting to Madagascar would not be for tourism purposes for anyone.

    How many Dreyfuses are concentration camps survivors do you think are "in the making"?

    Israel has to open up, peacefully integrate, and peacefully disintegrate. For avoidance of doubt, I repeat, not because I care about that entity, but because I care for human life, and I believe that there can be another way of resolving conflict.

    Not more, not less.

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  12. Fadi,

    I am not sure I understand your point.

    No concentration camp survivor that I am aware of decided to kill Germans. Dreyfus remained a French patriot and served in the French Army for many years. So why should I be worried if these are created in the Arab world?

    Most people don't carry a multi-generational grudge. Why is it different in the Israeli-Palestinian case? Why can a Palestinian in Lebanon be happy only if he returns to Haifa, instead of becoming happy by building a productive and successful life for himself in Lebanon, just like I don't want to return to Poland. I am not denying him his right to want to return, I am just trying to understand the motivation.

    In the end the whole issue is the right of return. By keeping this an open possibilty, many refugees put their life on hold instead of moving on. That is why I think that is best to acknowledge once and for all that this will most likely not happen. The Paelstinians should get a large monetary compensation ($20B dollars say) but regarding the right of return, it is just not an option I would be willing to accept. For me this means the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

    There are risks associated with having a Jewish state, but given the history of the Jewish people, it is a risk that makes sense for us to take. We don't want to be at the mercy of anybody and rely on their good will. If the Armenians were treated well 200 years before the genocide and 200 years after the genocide, how does this prove that they should try integrating? It just proves that unless you have a country and can protect yourself, somebody may wake up on the wrong side of the bed and decide to kill you.

    A Jewish state in the middle east is not a bad option for the Jews when we take into account our history. We will therefore take our chances. In all the wars with the Arabs, less Jews were killed than in one day in Auschwitz.

    e

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  13. e,
    The motivation for return?I will use your own words to make you see the other side of the coin – What if Palestinians as well don't want to be at the mercy of anybody and rely on their good will? It just proves that unless you have a country and can protect yourself, somebody may wake up on the wrong side of the bed and decide to kill you. Why do you think a Palestinian would be safer anywhere else in the world than in his own country and state?

    While No concentration camp survivor that you are aware of decided to kill Germans, I am sure they went ahead to fight Palestinians. They channelled the hatred and the anger! The Palestinian Dreyfus is an allegory to a cause that would push the Palestinians in Diaspora to realize that they must have a country, or the Arabs in Israel, who are now so called "Israeli" citizens to realize that they are better off in their own state. Just like the French Jews "realized" they need a home.

    You seem to repeat that Most people don't carry a multi-generational grudge. Why is it different in the Israeli-Palestinian case? I will tell you my side of the story: because the grudge is being renewed daily. Israel is killing Palestinians, invading, arresting, expelling, attacking neighbouring states. The generations today are fighting a different war. Last that I remember, I witnessed Israeli invasion in 1982, and offensive in 1992, 1996, and 2006. I don’t pay a hoot's arse that Hizbullah threw rockets in such and such and that Palestinian Guerrillas did so and so. Had there been no "Israel," no body would have thrown any rockets southward. The point I'm trying to make is that Israel to me is a warring enemy. My war has nothing to do with 1948. There is a cause, a defence of the Palestinian People's right to a home – that's a CAUSE, and there's a war, which is renewed daily on TV, and in real life.

    Maybe the Palestinian in Lebanon will NOT be happy After his return to Haifa, but that is his own business. Just like many jews so immigrated to Israel did not like to stay. I don’t think what the Palestinians after their return feels is relevant, neither is their state of mind. A selfish presumption on the Israeli side is not sufficient. The statement such as "I'm happy where I am, why cant you be happy where you are" is not an answer, it's an outrage. For a Jew, could it have been that all countries in the world were places to live, but there is only one home?

    Why do you deny the same right to a Palestinian? If the promised land was the promised land 1850 years after the diaspora, why weren't the Jews content with living where they were in UK, USA, Russia etc.

    What the refugees do may be right or wrong, but that doesn't change the question: If a rape victim refuses to take a shower, does that deny the victim's right to a fair trial? These are two separate issues. For financial compensation, many Palestinians may choose to give up their past property rights in Palestine (or so called State of Israel), great start, but then what. How do propose to deal with the non-Jewish population of so called Israel, mainly, the Palestinians who are inside "Israel"? Or the tens of thousands of Russian Immigrants who are not Jewish, but came looking for a better life, or those Jewish born who are secular, or atheist, or converts to other religions? As I said, Judaism is a religion, not a disease or a scarlet letter, and certainly It does not qualify for quarantine in a state.

    You say that in all the wars with the Arabs, less Jews were killed than in one day in Auschwitz.
    - Do you think the status of "less Jews are being killed" would last forever?
    - Do you think there will be another Auschwitz? When?

    If Israel's role is to defend Jews and grant them peace and a home, it can do that for some time, but not forever. There is not such thing as an eternal state. There is not such thing as an ultimate power, and there is not such thing as invincible. A few generations of Jews who would "enjoy" having a state of their own will leave generations to come of them "defending," and generations more "helpless" until a last generation finally "loses". With twenty million Jews around the world, growing less by the day, demographics are not on their side - for example.

    One might claim of course that God is on the side of Israel, and I will ask then, where was God on 70 A.D, and in 1941? Probably the same place he will be in the year when a state that started with a dream and ended with a nightmare is put to rest.

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  14. Fadi said: You say that in all the wars with the Arabs, less Jews were killed than in one day in Auschwitz.
    - Do you think the status of "less Jews are being killed" would last forever?
    - Do you think there will be another Auschwitz? When?

    To the first question, the answer is that according to my best judgment, less Jews will be killed for the simple reason that Israel has nuclear weapons and therefore the likelihood of it being destroyed is very small. Because Israel exists I don’t think there will be another Auschwitz. That is the reason Israel is needed.

    Fadi said: If Israel's role is to defend Jews and grant them peace and a home, it can do that for some time, but not forever. There is not such thing as an eternal state. There is not such thing as an ultimate power, and there is not such thing as invincible. A few generations of Jews who would "enjoy" having a state of their own will leave generations to come of them "defending," and generations more "helpless" until a last generation finally "loses". With twenty million Jews around the world, growing less by the day, demographics are not on their side - for example.

    I don’t agree with your assessment. I don’t know about forever but for the next 200 years things are looking ok. I don’t see how in the age of technology and nuclear weapons, demographics are important. In 40-50 years Israel may be fielding robotic armies. So what if the number of Jews in the world is dwindling? The number of Jews in Israel is growing steadily. Israel is a thriving high tech economy. Not that Israel does not have problems, but if I compare the achievements of Israel relative to the Arab countries over the last 60 years, I can only be optimistic about the future. In addition, with the strong Islamic direction many Arab countries are taking, I see less advancement and less modernity. When the Arabs stop fighting among themselves, adopt liberal democracies and advance technologically, then I will be worried. But then again, not really. Once most Arabs are middle class by western standards, they will have no appetite for useless wars. Either way is good for Israel.

    Fadi said: For financial compensation, many Palestinians may choose to give up their past property rights in Palestine (or so called State of Israel), great start, but then what. How do propose to deal with the non-Jewish population of so called Israel, mainly, the Palestinians who are inside "Israel"? Or the tens of thousands of Russian Immigrants who are not Jewish, but came looking for a better life, or those Jewish born who are secular, or atheist, or converts to other religions? As I said, Judaism is a religion, not a disease or a scarlet letter, and certainly it does not qualify for quarantine in a state.

    If Palestinians agree to financial compensation instead of the right of return, all other problems are resolvable. The Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel and will remain so if they wish. So will the non-Jews. What is the issue here? In most nations there are minorities.

    You misunderstand what to be a Jew means. I am an atheist but I am still a Jew. To be a Jew means to be part of a tribe or hamula. I am Jewish because my mother who is also an atheist was Jewish. Hitler did not ask people what they believed before killing them. He asked them who their grandparents were. Just as you can marry into a tribe, you can convert to Judaism. Judaism was the way of life of a middle eastern tribe. It is a set of customs intertwined with a membership of a tribe. For example, the current cardinal of Paris, Lustiger, is Jewish because as a child he hid in a convent from the Nazi’s and became a catholic. You can be a Jew and a catholic or muslim. And of course you can be an atheist. I view all other Jews as part of my extended family and not as co-religionists. Just as many nations have states, it makes sense that there is a Jewish state.

    As an atheist you know my answer for on whose side God is. If you agree that compensation instead of the right of return is fine, I think that at least the two of us can agree on how to stop the war.

    e

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  15. This exchange of views is phenominal. I have never read anything, that has been so enlightening as your exchange.

    You both live this everyday, and we "outsiders" struggle with a deeper understanding of both of your dreams and aspirations for the Land of Palestine, and The State of Israel.

    You have both illuminated with clarity and logic, a situation that has long perplexed the outside world. You have both done so in a manner that brings me a deep respect for you both, and both of your views. For this I thank you.

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  16. Fadi my friend, you have to understand and accept it, Judaism is not only a religion, in spite of what they taught you, Judaism is a nationality, Israel exists and that's it, I can also claim that the Palestinians are not a distinctive nationality and are just a band of immigrant tribes from Egypt, Syria, Turkey and so on, but today I cant deny that there a Palestinian nation exists and that it's problem (lack of country) needs to be solved, but I tell you here, it >will not< be solved at the expense of my country's existence.

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  17. Guys, a most interesting argument, sorry for the delay in responding, I'm working on a project at the moment, I will work on a response and post it, not as a comment, but as a sequel.

    I just laughed my heart out at the fact that one can be a Jew and say, a Christian or a Muslim at the same time. It's not because I view it as a joke (actually, it's a breakthrough), but because I have a small story to tell.

    My mother descends from an Arab tribe called al-Khazraj. Those Khazraj are historically known to be an Arab Jewish tribe that converted to Islam back then. [it's not a joke]

    Of course, I could not wait to break the news to her over the phone the other day when I read the blog that a Jew is a descendant of a tribe and has nothing to do with a religious conviction or (lack of religious conviction). I told her what e said about being a Jew Muslim, a Jew Jew, a Jew Christian, and a Jew Secular, and hence she qualifies to move to Israel and "seek shelther," and enjoy 25,000$ a year per capita income (it has to be a bit higher to get us moving) and that with a strict and evident family tree that show descent from that tribe, she can "move back," because that makes me a "jew" also.

    She went aghast. If I get my nationalistic temperament from anyone, it is probably her fault! Of course, I am disowned now! To cut short the lengthy commentry that touches on profanity she had on Israel, Judaism, Lineage, and anything south of the border, I am told that the only way I would ever set foot there is with a machine gun to fight back Arab land. Now I guess she got those violent qualities from her jewish lineage?

    Of course, assuming that there is such a thing as a jewish lineage (all hamanity can be traced back to 10 people), or any other lineage for that matter, how do you qualify as a jewish descendant?

    Answer carefully, otherwise you will end up with two million jewish muslims and jewish christians who are ethnically so.

    I like this dialogue. Of course, living in Israel or qualifying ot move to it - in principal, gives me a chance to work on dismantling the state from within.

    take care now.

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  18. Whats the problem, if a Jew converts to Islam he is no long a part of the people of Israel, just like if a Muslim converts to Judaism he becomes a part of the people of Israel, it's no secret that many Jewish tribes converted or were forcibly converted to Islam and Christianity.

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  19. Fadi,

    It is really very simple. You are over intellectualizing it. If your mother is Jewish or if you convert to Judaism you can come to Israel and become a citizen and for me you are also a Jew.

    No Rabbi would approve your conversion unless he believes that you are sincere in your intent of tying your future with the future of the Jewish people. I don't think this is applicable in your case :).

    In order to prove that your mother is Jewish you need two witnesses that will testify that she is Jewish or a letter from some figure in the Jewish community she or you came from. This is not a science and obviously some people can take advantage of the system as many Russians have. I personally don't mind. I would rather make sure that no Jew is denied at the expense that some non-Jews are accepted.

    Human diversity is such that almost everyone has some kind of ancestor. If your mother has a Jewish ancestor, that does not make her a Jew just as the fact that I have Polish, German, Russian and Italian ancestors doesn't make me a Pole, a German a Russian or an Italian. Please tell her not to worry.

    In any case, would you deny the Jews the right of self determination? If we decide that we are a nation, just as the Palestinians did (see Ramban's remark), isn't that enough? Why the double standards?

    e

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  20. [e]
    “In any case, would you deny the Jews the right of self determination?”

    I don’t think this self determination can be done! (laughter) How? How can you guys self-determinate when you don’t even know who you really are? So what are you?

    Does the blood of Abraham flow through your veins?

    Nope!

    Are you an atheist? Yes, I agree! You don’t believe in God.

    (Laughter) Yet you claim that God is on your side (more laughter).

    Can you answer this question? How on EARTH is God on your side when you don’t even believe in God?

    Is your “jewish belief” in God through some sort of proxy “god” that forgives the non-belief in God, thereby forgiving all sorts of sins of an egomaniacal, blood-lusting society that is ‘israel’s’?

    Are you a Jew? Okay, I’ll go along.

    You are a convert for CONVENIENCE SAKE, as you reveal or DON’T reveal (depending on whom you are talking to) –- You wear a “Jew” mask over your Frankenstein Zionist Face. Yep! That is what you do.

    For if you did not claim to be “jews” or more properly, the tribe of Judah of which Israel, once upon a time, belonged to, the USA and Europe would not have supported or fought your illegal bloody INVASIONS for you against the Palestinians and other Arabs that came to their aid.

    Well so much for your “heroics”, seeing that you depended on so many others and their money to help you beat the Arabs…………..but I digress.

    So, you are a “jew”, an atheist, and a Zionist all rolled up into ONE. Must be tough explaining all of that to outsiders.

    So you are one who believes in God.

    You are one who doesn’t believe in God, and that Jesus Christ was a mere animal – an imposter.

    You are one who murders insatiably to destroy another’s land and people just because you wanna. Just because you can. Just because you have the USA-paid-for technology. Just because you have the world’s belief in your lies at your disposal. Just because you falsely say the land is ‘yours’.

    So tell me……… what’s next in that House of Cards, that House of Mirrors, that House of Horrors of a place you call ‘israel’?

    The traffic in Tel Aviv must be nasty! Your traffic lights must be a combination of green and red striped light. Gee golly, how do those Israelis get around? Should they stop or should they go?

    Must be really nasty for the women in ‘israel’. To live in such a world where yes means no and no means yes. Horrors!

    Seeing that you do not know who you really are, perhaps you will ask for more billions from the USA so that you confused knobs can have sex change operations.

    After all, are you really a man? Or are you a woman? Which is it? Or are you both?

    Who’s the actual double-talker here, anyway? Or should I say….who is the actual triple-talker?

    In the insane, truth-distorted world of the Zionist, there’s a new invention of ‘speech’ conjured up regularly to suit their needs to ‘appear legitimate’.

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  21. Rhiannon,
    Please talk to your parents and show them your posts. You have serious issues and should see your school's psychologist. Your posts show clear signs of self hatered and suicidal tendencies and for your own safety you really need to inform some adults about your state of mind immidately.
    I am not joking or being sarcastic.
    e

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  22. That's right. And if I was a Jew, I would be a self-hating Jew, wouldn't I? And, indeed, I would need some help, as you say, right? And if I was a refusnik, I would be a self-hating israeli, or Jew, or both - whatever - (since you keep muddying up the identity of who people really are) - right?

    As long as things are going your way, your 'country's' way, the zionist scheme of things way, everything is all right with the world - right?

    Tough luck, PAL. You lose. Your 'squeaky clean', over-bleached zionist world happens to have quite a few bloody spots on it.

    Scream "out damn spot!" all you want. We see the blood.

    Instead, try this: Take your parents and children with you on your many INVASIONS to the territories.
    Let them see how 'brave' you are as you beat and murder children half your size, three to four 'soldiers' against one child or one man.
    Let your parents and children see how 'brave' you are as you destroy their homes and belongings.
    Let your parents and children watch you humiliate and roughly handle Palestinian parents and grandparents at checkpoints.

    Hope your children and parents pack a big lunch while they watch the drama. Palestinians wait half a day to a whole day just to get through.

    Now the violence may upset them and make them wonder what this is doing to the minds of the 'soldiers'. Indeed, I hear that severe depression and suicidal tendencies run high amongst the IOF.

    If these illegal invasions and humiliations do not upset your parents and children, and you are not bothered by this violence yourself, then you are what we call SOCIOPATHS.

    If this is the case for the greater part of 'israel' then there can be no help for a people with no conscience.

    In that case, the blood of Abraham is completely non-existent in your veins and you are not God's Chosen.

    So who are you, really? What are you? Hoaxsters? Charlatans? Quacks? Fraudmeisters?

    Sad.

    ReplyDelete
  23. You are a sad person, your fanatical hatred for Israel has screwed your mind, like I said, denying the right of certian people of self-determination simply because they are Jews is anti-semitism , and you cant cover it, not even with a million excuses, capital letters, exclamation marks etc etc.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I see that the word 'fanatical' is high on your list of accusations when you don't like what another person is saying about 'israel'.

    THere's no help for you there.

    My hatred is not fanatical but focused, well directed and has just cause.

    I do not hate people nor their religions. I despise people who pretend to be something they are not and use religion to hurt other people.

    You and your 'israel' are on the top of the list.

    You have showed nothing but cruelty, viciousness, and sociopathic behavior towards Arabs.

    Their reactions and my reactions are justified.

    You are not a semite. So how can you accuse me of anti-semitism?

    Your so-called trump card that is 'anti-semitism' is WEARING THIN like you have no idea.

    There are a lot of people getting sick and tired of your conjured nonsense of 'anti-semitism' SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS.

    I am a semite, sweetie pie. Me. I am and you are not. I have 100% Lebanese blood in my veins, while you are a product of conversion from centuries ago and your layers of ancestry reside from EASTERN EUROPE.

    I am not covering up anything - like YOU HAVE for decades.

    The Palestinians and Lebanese you murder everyday are SEMITES.


    Get over yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Not only racist, fanatic, fundamentalist and nationalist, but also ignorant.

    I suggest you look up who was ramban and then tell me that I'm an 'eastren european convert'. Sadly, I cant blame you, you are not a thinking person who is fanatical out of choice, but the defective product of a brainwashing machine you call "Education", I dont expect anyone who's been taught from day 1 that Jews are bad, evil, Eastren European converts who bake little Muslim kids, and learns about Israel only in the context of "The Zionist enemy", to have an open mind and be able to handle a dissucsion with the big bad YAHUDI. Watch out, I'll have the elders of Zion after you and your family.

    ReplyDelete
  26. OK Ramban, that does it.

    I’ve been carefully monitoring the exchange of commentary, and I decided not to intervene because I thought Rhiannon could take care of himself, but it’s just getting to much.

    Assuming for the sake of argument Rhiannon is racist, fanatic, fundamentalist and nationalist, as well as ignorant, how are YOU any better?

    You, yes YOU believe that Jews or Hebrews are God’s selected people, hence superior. From the sack of the walls of Jericho all the way through the sack of Deir Yaseen, the destruction of Beirut, all.. You are superior, YOUR blood is superior, and YOUR life is superior. Least that can be said, how can you BE that and yet deny it to others.

    You – e? - have the right to assume that a Jew (a religion, I repeat, Judaism is a religion and not a disease or a trademark) who lives in Northern Russia or in Warsaw has the right to decide to find a promised land, kill its inhabitants, deny their existence, transfer them, yet deny the right to a Lebanese, who is 8000 years genetically tied to Lebanon, and who was most probably driven away to a second home in Canada for a living or an education because the IDF mongers destroyed our economy and livelihood since 1978 onwards (defending the land of the Jews(?) means you can destroy everyone else’s! Someone was claiming that Rhiannon has no right to speak because he is in the comfort of his second home in Canada. Guess what honey, do you think that the Jeursalem evacuees in 70 A.D and the converts to Judaism had the right to dream of returning to Palestine even 1850 years later, chasing the sun with their prayers to return for 1850 years, yet you deny a Lebanese citizen the right to defend his rights because of a place of residence? You choose, is that fanatic or LUNATIC?

    Fundamentalism – in a mistakenly used religious sense .. Let’s go there… I’m sorry, but last I heard Ovadia Yousef or however he spells his name call Arabs insects and snakes, perhaps insects do not qualify as a “race”, but a as a Phylum perhaps? Hence, you are not racist; insects qualify as an environmental genre? Fundamentally, listen to this FUNDAMENTAL statement, what is right shall prevail. Palestinians and Arabs were not responsible for the Jews misery in any way or form, Jews lived among us for centuries, untouched, respected, and prospering. Now the Zionists used their ethical right of being victims of the Nazis or the Europeans to victimize US. No matter how they see it, Arabs and Palestinians will not tolerate anybody’s Crap or blunders. Fundamentalism is a good word, you IGNORANT person, and if a Fox News Dweeb uses the term to classify a bearded mullah, then the dweeb is wrong, and the mullah does not live up to that word. Proudly fundamentalist. Sure!

    Nationalist? Perhaps establishing a “national Jewish state” is the worst paradox and the ugliest racist and ethnically repulsive term I have heard. Hence, you end up with a Nationalist disclaimer defending a mock on a state yet denying others the right to even discuss their own?

    Save your breath, We the LEBANESE, are Semites, but we are not allergic to that or to non-Semites. We are the product of centuries of cross-cultural interaction, of civilizations that mix and develop. From dark skinned to blonde-haired people, from Arab descents to Assyrians, to Persian, to Armenian, even to Afghan and North African, we are the cross pollination of cultures and religions, and we are PROUD of that. We are part of our surrounding, of the direct environs, and of the expansive environs. We are on the cross roads of east and west. As part of the Arab culture, we are the byproduct of a Christian-Islamic-even Judaic culture, as part of the expansive Islamic culture, we are the byproduct of cultures from Indonesian all the way to Morocco, and as part of the Universal culture, WE are the forerunners. We have no problem with the past, and with all the variances, clashes, and roughs we have every now and then, WE, and hear this very well: WE DO NOT SPILL our crap on anybody else, UNLIKE YOU.

    We are nobody’s rejects, we are nobody’s outcasts, and we are not seen as anybody’s enemy. The world is in us, we are in the world, and “us” is a term, which can expand to engulf 6 continents. We immigrate, we build, we progress with the adopted nations, but preserve our love to our homeland, but to our second homeland as well. The agents of progress and tolerance. We were never a cause of genocide, nor the victims of one for all the above reasons and far more. We side with what is right, from Che Guevara to Dallai Lama.

    The Republic of Lebanon is a small peace of heaven on the east coast of the Mediterranean, but it’s a plot of land, it’s a mountain. We are the people who leave this small peace of land, roam the world, and spread the seed of change and prosperity around the globe, from Carthage to Sao Paolo, we defy environments, and defy cultural shocks and integrate – we have not Ghettos. In every land we go, we build a Lebanon that can be Spanish, or English, or Arab or Malawi. That’s what Lebanon is, a dream of how a tolerant life-loving jolly progressive open world would look like. Until such a dream comes true, we shall keep trying. It is a struggle for a better place. We’re not there yet, but we will keep trying.

    Israel is our opposite, it’s the nightmare of frightened xenophobic bloody handed racist supremist grouping who want to much to be loved, but forget that they have to wash their hands and their hearts first.

    Blood, genes, religion, race, RUBBISH. Yahudi, Mislim, Masihi, RUBBISH. Arabi, Pakistani, Americani: Rubbish. Safardim, Askhinaz, Falasha: RUBBISH.

    Send those separatist thoughts to the dumpsite where they belong, and look at the pile of bones and the pool of blood your nightmare has caused.

    That is the cause of hatred you short-sighted whatever you call yourself. Nothing more, nothing less. Answer to the bloody hand, to the knife, to the walls, to the destruction, to the F-16s, to the wars, to the Golani, to Qana!

    Answer to those – DO YOU DARE?

    You want to be loved: Clean up first, before we scrub you clean.

    At least Rhiannon and I are still using words. Count your blessings and change before it’s too late.

    You bring it on yourself. We have warned you. If it takes us 1850 years – what is right will prevail.

    Tell the elders of Zion to stick their head where their foot is, we are not scared of anybody. Maybe they can come closer to reality. boo!

    And if you see God, you being his chosen ones, tell him to send me a Ferrari, it will be put to Good use!

    ReplyDelete
  27. You say I think that the Jews' blood is more important, where did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth I never said, you see? Its that damn propoganda I'm talking about speaking out of your throat, you are just dogmaticly saying things about me because that's what you've been brainwashed with.

    Secondly, here's another part of the brainwash you've went through - Judaism is not only a religion, it's a nationality aswell, you can deny it all day long but that is the reality, it is also the reality that the land of Israel is the land of the people of Israel. I didnt invent this, look in your Quran, it says the same on both of these things.

    You say that "Defending the land of the Jews means you can destroy everyone else's", naturally, the security of one's country comes before the security of his enemy's, hello, welcome to earth! The security of India is more important to the Indians than the security of Pakistan, and the security of China, and the security of Israel is more important to the Israelis than the security of Lebanon, that's all, and if Lebanon chooses to fight with Israel, it should expect that Israel fights back, and since the balance of the forces is not equal it should expect more death and destruction if it chooses to do so (I would say that this should lead you to seek peace rather than war, but since you are all fanatic war mongers it would be premature to talk about peace).

    It doesnt matter what Ovadia Yosef says, because he does not run our country. You see, unlike you, we have realised that mixing religion and politics is a big no-no and leads to bad things, fundamental and fundamentalism are two different things, and if you cant define between them you are in a bad condition.

    Ah, now we reach the favorite argument of every Arab and Muslim "We didnt kill you so dont do things on our expense", for the 10000000th time, the holocaust has nothing to do with Zionism or Israel, it is not because, it is in spite, we didnt look for a state because of the holocaust, brought a globe to the weekly meeting of the elders of Zion, spun it and put a finger blind and this is how we got here, although this is what they teach you, sadly it's not true.

    We 'chose' this place not by random, but because it is our land, our land is the land of Israel, that's all, and that's why we didnt establish a country in Russia or south America. National home does not have anything to do with nationalism, you are once again mixing things because you dont understand what they mean.

    I dont care about Lebanon, because I'm not Lebanese, you on the other hand, are obssessive about Israel, if I'd of spent 1/10 the time you spend thinking about Israel thinking about Lebanon I think I'll have a heart attack! I open my window and I like what I see, I walk down the street and I like what I hear, this is my country and I like it, that's all.

    I find it funny to hear lectures about seperatism and violence from someone who's country went through 15 years of civil war and 100,000 dead, if we were to take your example of harmony and coexistence I'll have to take a long route, first I'll need to find my suitable secterian militia, then I'll need to buy a gun and start shooting my fellow countrymen (those damn blue eyed ashkenasis, always hated them), maybe throw their bodies into whitewash pits or tie their skulls to the back of my car, and if I die I can always be declared a martyer and enjoy life in heaven with many virgins and that.

    Last, my dear Fadi, I think I'll have to ruin another one of your fantasies, are you sitting...?








    There are no elders of Zion!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Fadi,
    Read carefully what I wrote. I claim that anybody living out of the region who will not support peace but also will not partake in any fighting is a hypocrit. I think the same of right wing Jews who live in the US and are against the peace process or the two state solution though they never will have to fight in any war.

    I am dissapointed that you are denying me the right of self determination. You may know a lot of things better than me, but for sure I know better than you who I am. I am an atheist Jew living in his Jewish homeland. If you deny me the ability to know this, you deny me my humanity.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Fadi,
    I would be happy to answer your questions but please be more specific. What is your issue about separatism for example? Do you have a problem that Belgium is separate from the Netherlands and Paraguay from Uruguay and Argentina?
    This is just one example. It was hard following your line of thought in the last comment of yours.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Ramban,

    You'd like to hear you're getting on my nerves... naaahh..not really.
    Of course there are no elders of Zion, and I know that because Zion has to found first, and if there were any elders sitting there, they would be a pile of bones,
    skulls near their feet (as per my earlier comment). Start looking in Madagascar.

    Go find the word dogma in a Larouse or a Webster. Then please use them. And while at it, look for the term derivation. I will not stoop to respond to your exchange of slanders, you
    are better than I whatever you choose to call me.. sweet pie.


    Fighting Israel is not the issue, there are several ways of fighting, and I made that
    clear. First, try justifying what the so called state of israel is doing here. You want a land on our expense: guess what, it won't happen, it won't end. You'll loose. I'm trying to save you here by asking you to change wisely.

    Of course it matters what Ovadia Youssef says. If you wish to eliminate discource, then you
    have to do it from both sides. Hence, you cannot accuse us of being dogmatic and throwing
    accusations.

    Actually, you make it worse by saying that holocaust was not the reason for the protrusion
    of the so called state of israel. Hence, you loose a moral justification for seeking refuge.
    In other words you are telling me you came into a land for political or "dogmatic"reason of
    a lost paradise, killed the natives, screwed up everybody's life FOR NO REAL URGENT CAUSE except that you felt unliked or unloved? Bloody Hell.. Bloody Hell Indeed. Guess what dear. There is
    a quotation that says: And the word is spoken against the oppressors. If you are saying you
    have caused destruction and war in Palestine and the region just because Hertzel felt out of place,
    or because Dreyfus (spelling?) was called a traitor.. Oh boy.. you just made it vvvvvery interesting.
    Guess what.. thank you, bye bye. (as in better luck in Madagascar or the underworld).

    Our country is the worst in the world, we are all criminals. However, no one is questioning us, you are the one who has to answer to what you're doing among us, and what you're doing to us.

    Raping a hooker is a crime. kicking a corpse is a crime. Torturing war criminals is a crime.
    Ethics and morality are not outweighed. Call us what you want, you are still a criminal.

    You have your crimes: answer the questions I asked: do you dare?
    Do you dare? Do you dare?

    Judaism is a nationality: yeah sure..hence, the Pop culture generation is a nationality as well.

    That's funny. I told you my mother desecends from a Jewish Tribe, if Judaism is a genetic issue,
    then she's Jewish (genetically), and I am One too. If it is a religion only, a faith, a belief,
    then it's not transmittable. This is what I keep repeating. Same applies to all other religious
    classifications, and with our world, to ethnic classifications. We are all Human beings. Let's forget whom we think we are, or what we call ourselves - let's look at what we can become.

    If you hear me say: I have every right to exterminate the people of Iceland, I am emotionally uncomfortable in disaspora,
    some goat shepherd who heard a voice in the forest and have brought three plates of camel dung with chicken scribbles that read: move to iceland, kill, destroy and build the temple of Raab, your god.
    and call your tribe: The people of Persail..

    1- Goat Shepherd: admit to mental clinic, after washing his hands from dung.
    2- Plates: use as plant fertilizer, makes good flowers.
    3- People of Persail: lolll....
    4- Raab: temple indeed. Buy the land from its owners and build a sewage factory and worship
    whatever you want for all I care. But dont usurp it.

    Do you really buy that?

    My point: call yourself whatever you want, do whatever you want, worship or unworship whomever you
    like, but don't kill, don't hurt, don't usurp, and most importantly: DONT DENY IT.

    While at it, Let's play a game of accusation. I accuse you of a 3 sin, and you accuse me
    back of 3. Let's be good catholics and confess our sins: in YES or NO forms.

    People of Israel (the state): I accuse you of Murder.
    People of Israel (that state): I accuse you of Denial of Murder.
    People of Israel (the state): I accuse you of knowinly hurting the peoples of Palestine, Lebanon, and others.


    Confess, then you accuse us back of 3 sins. In YES or NO only.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Fadi,

    What Ovadia Yousef says is stupid. Yes, there are stupid people in Israel. So what? In a democracy stupid people get to speak their minds.

    The Jews were rejected by the Europeans and decided to create a country for themselves. This was well before the Holocaust. In the early 1900's there was an argument in the Zionist movement whether to accept Uganda as a homeland instead of Palestine. Because of the historical identity of the people, the Uganda idea was rejected. Those people felt connected to the land of Israel. This is an undeniable fact. Ramban's arguments are accurate.

    You are not happy with the Zionist movement and the European history that led to its creation and success. I accept that. Nobody can change the past and will can only look to the future.

    The current situation is that you have two peoples, the Palestinians and the Jews that view themselves as nations and want the same land.

    There is no need whatsoever for moral justifiation for self determination. Why do you think that? If several million people like me believe they are Jews and share a common destiny in the Land of Israel, that is all that is required.

    May I suggest to all of us that we keep the discussion civilized and as Socrates would have done it? Both the Israelis and the Lebanese have yet to prove that they can live in peace with themselves and with their neighbours. How is pointing fingers going to help move forward? Let's discuss the issues instead of casting blame.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Ramban,
    Ahi, bishvil ma ze tov?
    I appreciates Fadi's willingness to dialogue with us. Let's discuss just the issues. Otherwise there will be no communication whatsoever.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  33. e-

    Don't we all wish for a way forward?

    I couldn't help smiling that I immediately understood the words written in Hebrew, especially "Ahi".. brother... an Arabic word. Good start.

    I appreciate your trying to control Ramban's temper. My nickname is Gadfly, and that is what Socrates called himself - he is a Gad Fly of the Athenians.. a fly which stings a cow into maddness.. but nonetheless stirrs movement. I mercifully am rather immune to attacks as I have little exaltation to any sacrsant principle if this principle does not serve the original purpose - including any of my own. I will explain, Though Shall not Kill, says "God," a phrase that goes "I killed in the name of God" means all the words in the senstence lose their intended holiness. I intentioanlly like to stab into depth of subjects to either dust them off, or to terminate them. Bring them on, let's kill all the misconceptions.

    Having said that, I of course still disagree of linking between words : jew/hebrew/ on genetic/conviction grouds. But we can agree that a group has the right to decide their form of existence. Cool? Hence I created the people, People of Persail, with a common denominator, the worship of Raab, and a common possible grouping place: Noweria. Let's build this from the first. Noweria can be in New York, or Madagascar, or the the Wak-Wak Islands.

    Having said that, of course there is a moral justifiation exits for self determination - self determination is a morally justified principle - in other words, you cannot break a moral principle for the sake of another. Self Determination loses value - the minute it violates for example: the right of life or existence of others. I perhaps exaggarated the term "move into a land a build a sewage factory and worship whoever you care," perhaps a less industrial phrase could have read, I do not contest the cause or justification of the existence of any grouping individual campus, forest, farm, island , or country, including the hypothetical state of persail.

    In other words, I am saying that I do not doubt the justificaiton anybody has for the existence of the so called state of israel. God forgive me for uttering the phrase. I do contest however: location, timing, and consquences until the last breath of my last descendant, i.e. a time frame of 2006 - 2856 (1850 years..).

    For all the right causes, fallacies and attrocities are uttered and comitted. I do not think the past is beyond us. I will explain: If we take things by their future values, Israel in 2006 has failed the morality test as far as dealing with its "natives", and "neighbours", and not to mention its own people. Israel in 1894 was a dream, in 2006, it's a nightmare. Failed tests are usually aborted, or fixed. I will use the pre-1948 definition of "jew" as a symbol of a wandering tribesman in search for a home or shelter, not as a religious connotation. Today's Palestinian's are yesterday's "jews".

    Israel is now a "fact" but not "right". This is different. Hanging "around" does not make Israel "likeable" or "durable."

    If we want to forget for a while the moral violations, and be pragmatic, we will say: Israelis and Palestinians are there now, what shall we do about them.

    I propose:

    1- Israel should admitt it has committed violations against human life, human rights, and property, which resulted in a devastating humanitarian crisis.
    2- Israel should admitt it tried to hide its blunders.

    We all know that Israel is not going anywhere in the time being. Israel should think of how to put an end to this:
    3- Israel should offer compensation to the Palestinians: Moral, and Financial, and Physical.
    4- Palestinians should be given the choice of returning to the primary Palestinian State in West Bank &Gaza, or acquiring the citizenship of that country - whether they return or not is a purely logistical situation.
    5- Palestinians should be offered Financial comnpensation for lands within the current so called state of Israel, and I would like to dare and say, right of residence and citizenship for those who choose to acquire the citizenship of that entity. Now I can assure you that the number will not be big for: not many Palestinians would willingly adopt such a "branding" -

    6- The future: Palestinian State and "Israel" - by then, we can drop the quotations, Israel..
    7- Let Demographics do the work.
    8- Future Future: Integration. I cannot tell you how the region will look like in two hundred years, but I can tell you, with a bit of Luck, there won't be any two states. The so called "Jews"(?- objection for term again) get over their need for a hideout, a country of their own, or etc.. Palestinians will grow to think of those people who once came from all over the world with arms as "modified & habitable version of a neighbour,".. intermarriage, cultural exchange, linguistic exchange, .... Who are we to debate how the future will look like, our duty is to keep the doors open for tomorrow to come by.

    And believe it or not, I'm saying this because I do not want to picutre when the day comes where my grandchild kills your grand grandson, or the other way around. I do not want to even imagine the possibility that my grandchildren one day will bear the same burden and blood stain on their hand, even if they one day will claim they proclaim the "right" and the "power" to enforce their rights!

    The Jews made "Jews" of the Palestinians by throwing them into diaspora. God Forbid the Palestinians or Arabs make "Jews" of the "Jews" one day... How can we be better than our enemies if we do to them what they did to us?

    When I think of the future, I do not seek revenge, I seek Gratification. I do not want to imagine that my grandson or my granddaughter could POSSIBLY by seen like the zionist settler marching into a peaceful village with machine guns or tanks or hovering with an F-16. Not even the 1/10000000 prospect of that. I do not want to envision that the symbol of my country, a Cedar, to been seen as a symbol of death and of hatred, like the swastika or the star of david...not even by the last departing Israeli on his/her way to Madagascar... no matter how appealing the dream is..

    Love your enemies? Well I'm willing to do that - I hate "you" so much that I do not be an image of "you" one day under any pretext.

    I'd rather die. I would rather walk into a gas chamber myself, or put a bullet in my head myself, but not receive ONE glance of fear or one tear a dream like yours has caused to others.. do you know how your heart falls when you hear the F-16 screetch overhead to bomb.. Out of hatred, not of love, I say, May you never have to hear this ever.

    It's like the screetch of a Nazi truck in front of a Jew's home in Berlin. It sounds like a beating heart about to explode. It feels like cold steel on a naked back. One wishes it was painful. It's a fear that doesn't stop, but doesn't kill.. The whole world stands still, time freezes, but fear does not.

    If there is any such thing as an eternal damnation that befalls an agressor, it is the child of this moment. That moment is nobody's prize. You can have it all.

    For this supposed moment of hallucination (?), or forevision, I will try to stop hating you. Life has no moral justification - and I am speaking of MY own life, if other lives do not. For lack of ways to express how I feel, You have my word, I will not make a "jew" of you ever again... not ever...

    O poor poor poor nameless wanderers, you think your journey is over.. It has just begun.. Only this time you have to cross uncharted worlds with a heavier burden.. the weight of a screetch in front of a house in Berlin..

    ReplyDelete
  34. [ramban] “if Lebanon chooses to fight with ‘israel’”

    You see this is where your WHOLE ‘argument’ falls apart. It’s the other way around, pal! It is ‘israel’ that plans its massacring of Lebanese civilians, as it has done so for the last 3 or 4 decades. Lebanon has no choice but to defend herself. And yet many times, Lebanon hardly had any defense because of such twisted, sick, creation of murder done by ‘israel’. Remember Shatila and Sabra?

    You circled the Palestinian refugee camps with your tanks. You made deals with the Lebanese Christian Militia, as they were to do your dirty work, but it was you who planned it all. The massacre of over 3,500 people was of your (‘israel’s) orchestration

    Some defense Lebanon had. You had Her own army butcher all those defenceless men women and children. When children and their mothers tried to escape, your ‘israeli soldiers’ threw them right back to the camps so that they would meet their deaths.

    The ‘israeli army’ wouldn’t even let the Red Cross enter (shades of Jenin 2002) because you were too busy piling the bodies into mass graves (homes you destroyed) so that you could pile the brick, mortar, and other parts of destroyed homes over the bodies to hide them.

    Yeah. Shades of Jenin. Everything ‘israel’ does, it does it the same, as if learned from rote.

    Perhaps there is this book and there is something to it, this protocol zion elder thing.

    I’ll tell you why. I’ve heard a lot of you Zionists shrieking:

    “IT DOESN’T EXIST! IT DOESN’T EXIST!”

    “IT IS A SHAM! THERE IS NO SUCH THING!”

    “OH, WHAT A LAUGH, BRINGING THAT UP, ARE YOU?’

    “ANTI-SEMTISM! ANTI-SEMITISM!”


    Seeing that all you Zionist peak freans are always mentioning this thing and not the other way around…….there must be something about it that rings true, after all, it’s got you spittin invectives, doesn’t?


    ZIONIST RULE #1

    The more they deny, the more they lie, therefore the opposite must be true.

    ReplyDelete
  35. [ramban] “Lebanon should expect that ‘israel’ fights back, since the balance is not equal, Lebanon should expect more death and destruction. Lebanon should seek peace rather than war. You are all fanatic war mongers.”

    ZIONIST RULE #2

    Completely disintegrate any chance of dialogue so as to NOT have peace, and to NOT get along with surrounding Arab neighbors. That way we get more of their land and resources – GOODY GOODY – WE THINK IT A PLAN.

    How do we do this?

    We get our Zionist media in North America to LIE and Manipulate for us:

    · Tell them that Lebanon started the ‘war’, therefore Lebanon does not want peace, the USA and Canadians will be eating our lies – hee!


    · Tell them that them Arabs are just a bunch of warmongers – what are the new words to use? Oh yes, islamists, islamofaschist, terrorists (not so new).


    · We must never tell them the truth that we ILLEGALLY INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY AS TO ILLEGALLY SLAUGHTER CIVILIANS.


    · We must tell them that hezbollah is using human shields (JUST AS WE DO-BUT WE MUST NEVER TELL – SSHHH!).


    · Now the American public will believe us when we tell them ‘we had to fight back’. Hee hee! That’s a joke. How can we fight back when we STARTED IT! SHHHHH!


    =========================00000

    Oh sure, coming on like the BRAGGART WARRIOR because you have billions and billions worth of USA weaponry. That will really endear you to people with good sense and integrity. Yeah, you keep it up. One day you’ll boom yourself with all that Nuclear weaponry in your arse, I mean arsenal – excuse me!

    Reality:

    You wanted to murder as many Lebanese civilians so that you could put a pipe in to get water from the Wazzani, and you stole tons of Lebanese fertile soil and hauled it off to ‘israel’. God only knows what else you stole and sullied in Lebanon with your sick depraved INVASION.

    You can’t pay for anything, can you?

    No, you have to STEAL everything. Lets murder hundreds of children and their families to make the stealing easier.

    That would be ZIONIST RULE #3.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Fadi,
    I agree with all your points except the aspect of 5 in which Palestinians get right of residence in Israel if they so wish. Unfortunately, while you may not view it as a critical part of your plan, currently it is a sticking point with the Palestinians.

    I understand very well your argument why you think that the manifestation of Jewish self determination in Israel is not moral because it is at the cost of another people. My historical perspective is different and I think that all geopolitical outcomes are compromises and that when viewed from a wide historical perspective, the Jewish state is moral and not a failed experiment (certainly when compared to many other states that have perpetuated much greater atrocities but even in absolute terms). But we shouldn't argue about this because it doesn't influence the steps moving forward and we already understand each other well on this point.

    I am not optimistic as you about the two states becoming one in time. How much intermarrige is there between the Christians and Muslims in Lebanon? Not much I would bet. Do you think Canada and the US will ever become one state, or the Netherlands and Belgium? Not likely in my opinion but I totally agree with you that "who are we to debate how the future will look like, our duty is to keep the doors open for tomorrow to come by".

    Fadi, you are a very special and compassionate person and the mideast would be a very different place if more people were like you. To be honest, I am not as godly as you. I am not willing to see my kids sent to the gas chamber or otherwise suffer and will defend them even if it unjustly creates suffering to others. I can promise you one thing though, that I will never use violence against anyone unless he uses violence against me.

    e

    ReplyDelete
  37. [the jewish atheist (lol)]"I can promise you one thing though, that I will never use violence against anyone unless he uses violence against me."

    Promises promises.


    [the jewish atheist (lol)] "Most of my family was killed by the Germans in wwII and all my family's posessions were taken by the Poles. The people that did these things are long dead and I am not going to fight their decendants because they are just not responsible."

    Are you trying to say you are gonna be a "big man" and take the high road after those nasty vipers pushed your family into the sea?

    Wow!

    Try this on for size. You don't give a fig about Poland. You wanted Palestine out of some false premise that the land is yours (sic).

    You took Palestine from the Palestinians which was theirs for many centuries and you massacred thousands to get what didn't belong to you.

    You did this easily because you had your Zionist organizations (the jewish atheists) back you up with tons of money and weaponry from sources in Europe and USA.

    Their would be no 'israel' without the lies you created and blood you spilled, illegally, atheistically, and 'jewishly' as you say. (lol).

    ReplyDelete
  38. More revealing ramblings from a atheist jew aka Zionist:

    “So what if the number of Jews in the world are dwindling?”

    It bothers you very badly. Sure, you will not admit this. And it is clear why:

    “the number of jews in israel is growing steadily”

    Tell me: Is that real jews? Or is that atheist jews? Or are they simply atheists? Which are which?

    Do you know WHY these people are moving to ‘israel’? They are sponsored by your ‘christian’ Zionists in the USA.

    They have fundraisers and CHURCH (as in Jesus and God, as in Jesus Lord Saviour – understand?) - donations. They raise multiple millions every year so that these Ethiopian and Russian jews can go to ‘israel’.

    Normally the Ethiopians and Russians wouldn’t bother, but ‘israel’ makes it lucrative – cheap housing, cheap healthcare, cheap or free education, and so on ……….

    All at the expense of the children in the USA and Lebanese and Palestinian children……..but I digress….

    You need these many assorted immigrants BADLY, as there are many Israelis LEAVING ‘israel’.

    Why?

    They don’t like the instability of the State and they don’t like the policies of their government.

    Maybe there are more people in ‘israel’ than you think or want to believe that are becoming disenchanted with the warmongering policies of a LEECH STATE – and a land that never belonged to them in the FIRST PLACE.

    ReplyDelete
  39. More Revealing Ramblings from a jewish atheist aka Zionist:

    “Israel is a thriving high tech economy. If I compare the achievements of Israel relative to the Arab countries over the last 60 years, I can only be optimistic about the future. In addition, with the strong Islamic direction many Arab countries are taking, I see less advancement and less modernity. When the Arabs stop fighting among themselves, adopt liberal democracies and advance technologically, then I will be worried. But then again, not really.”

    You just gave yourself away but then you tried to take it back with “but then again, not really.” You were telling the truth here:

    “When the Arabs stop fighting among themselves, adopt liberal democracies and advance technologically, then I will be worried.”

    Then you tried to cover up with “but then again, not really.”

    I can’t decide, please help me. Is it because of your muddied identity that you tell the truth and then try to pitifully cover it up? Is the muddied, distorted identity that you have the root problem to not being able to tell between lies and truths?

    Or....


    Is this just another one of your ways to play sick, manipulative games with people.

    I will be clear:

    You most definitely want Arabs to fight among themselves! That is one of your hidden trump cards along with your ‘holocaust denier’, ‘antisemitism’, and ‘all the big Arabs wanna push little ‘israel’ into the sea’ trump cards.

    When Arabs fight among themselves you gleefully tell your Newsmedia whores in N.A. all about it. Exaggeration is key. This plays right into your – Let’s get rid of the Arabs – policies, RIGHT?

    This makes Arab people look very bad and ‘israel’ very good. This is what you want and this is what you are selling. And the N.A. public BUYS it.

    ‘israel’s’ achievements? What are those? If you’re talking positive, again you have North America and Europe to thank. No way would ‘israel’ be able to be technologically advanced without great vast amounts of monies coming from Europe and N.A.

    AS FOR OTHER ACHIEVEMENTS of ‘israel’
    excesses and abuses such as:
    ## Expropriation of land, uprooting of trees and demolition of homes;

    ## Torture…;

    ## Bullying and humiliating which is demoralizing both to perpetuator and victim;

    ## The exercise of double standards…;

    ## Shooting to kill when life is not in immediate danger;

    ## Collective punishment of children for the sins of their parents…;

    ## Sale of weapons to aggressive regimes;

    ## Undercover killings.

    ## Illegal Bulldozing of Palestinian Homes.

    ## Let’s not forget your greatest achievements of all:

    The relentless murdering of your Arab neighbor’s BABIES AND CHILDREN and your INHUMANLY SADISTIC APARTHEID WALL.

    ReplyDelete
  40. More disintegrating ramblings a jewish atheist (LOL):

    “…Judaism is not only a religion, it's a nationality aswell, you can deny it all day long but that is the reality, it is also the reality that the land of Israel is the land of the people of Israel. I didnt invent this, look in your Quran, it says the same on both of these things.”

    Where? Tell me anywhere in any Holy Book this is true, oh grand and noble atheist one. Where in the Koran? Where in Gideons? Where in the OT? The NT? Where in the Torah? There’s a lot of Holy Books out there – pick one.

    Will this investigation sully and taint your atheist predisposition? Will turning the pages of the Holy Books that are filled with the name of Jesus cause you to shrivel?

    Why do you even dare to speak of any Holy Book and what is says when you are an atheist? Giving me more peanut butter and ketchup sandwiches....and in your world elephants fly.

    As an atheist, why would you even dare to bring up God giving Israel to the Israelites (back in that time, NOT today)....

    Why do you sell to the world the ridiculous notion that Jesus was a Jew? Because that makes you more palatable to the Christian and Muslims, RIGHT?

    But you hate Jesus. You shrug Him off like a flake on your shoulder. But it is okay to bring up Jesus the Jew, for that serves your purposes perfectly.

    So you speak of GOD and JESUS like you know something we don’t, but you are an ATHEIST.

    TRUMP CARDS:
    1. God gave 'atheist jews' Israel. 'atheist jews' = the true Abrahamic Israelites. (I'm really trying to contain my laughter here).

    2. Jesus is a Jew.

    What else have you got going in your funny house of cards?

    Tell me: just for clarity, are you an atheist jew? Or a jewish atheist? Is there a difference between the orders of these two? Perhaps there’s more than meets the eye? In your deep well of wisdom, I am dying to find out ( as you say you will unleash the zion elders to get me), I am dying to find out if there are hidden meanings between atheist jew and jewish atheist.

    ===========================================

    Christian Zionists assume that the United States will prosper only if it supports all the policies of the Israeli government. Christian Zionists base this on God’s words to Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse” (Gn. 12:3).
    However, when Israel strayed from righteousness, God who loved Israel became angry and withheld himself from Israel.
    In Isaiah God says, “…Ah, sinful nation, people laden with iniquity, offspring who do evil…who have forsaken the Lord…When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.” (Is. 1:4-15).
    To restore themselves to his grace, God says the Israelites should “…seek justice, rescue the oppressed…” (Is. 1:17) At a different time, speaking through Malachi, God says, “Then I will draw near to you for judgment, I will be swift to bear witness against…those who oppress the…widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien...” (Mal. 3:5).

    ================================

    ZIONIST RULE # 4

    The mad invention of TRUMP CARDS to make the world go topsy turvy.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Rhiannon,
    I would respond if I could understand what you are saying. If you made one point instead of rambling and raising ten points in one post, it would help.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  42. Rhiannon,
    In your last post you quote Ramban, not me. I never raised any issue related to God or scripture in my posts or have uses them in any argument.

    Wow, this whole atheist Jew thing is really getting to you. Why are you finding it so offensive?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  43. Offensive?

    Naaah. Not at all. Have you any idea what you have done?

    You have caused a huge uproarious ripple of laughter as I copy-paste your words defining yourself as an atheist jew on other blogs.

    The reaction is amazing to see. I just can't wait to see what you will say next.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Rhiannon,
    Please post it on as many blogs as possible. This way people like you will be educated as to what being a Jew is all about.
    Please post the names of the blogs you posted my writings on. I would like to read people's reactions.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  45. Rhiannon,
    Still waiting for you to post the blog names... Thank you.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  46. You DO NOT want Arabs to become technologically advanced and well educated and you DO NOT want them to become liberal, moderate or democratic....for then 'israel' would not look so good, isn't that so?

    Even though many Arab people are moderate and want to live in a democracy, but your Zionist occupied media in N.A. won’t let on about democratic Lebanon.

    It is the technologically advanced, moderate and well educated Arabs and Persians that are your BIGGEST THREAT – RIGHT? C’mon, you just said it! You admitted it. And I thank you.

    Isn’t that the reason why your Mossad and Mossad-driven CIA is killing hundreds of educators, scholars, doctors, engineers, scientists, and University students in Iraq?

    Isn’t that the reason they are giving money to insurgents and Arab traitors to do their dirty work as well?

    You love it that they are killing each other, don’t you? This is what you wanted all along. Chaos and murder to weaken their country and to further ‘israel’ USA neocon agendas.

    You love Ahmadinejad, don’t you?

    He gives you reason to shriek and you love it:

    “See, N.A. people? Those big bad Arabs wanna push poor little ‘israel’ into the sea!”

    “see, N.A. people? See how evil and violent those big bad Arabs are?”

    Ahmadinejad, just like Hussein, falls into your sick little collection of trump cards – RIGHT?

    Sad thing is Ahmadinejad is not the scapegoat fool – puppet that your beloved Hussein was.

    While Ahmadinejad plays right into ‘israel’s and USA neocon’s hands – Well he cannot help it, he has no choice, does he? – Still he won’t kiss your butt and make your Anti-Arab policies feel better like Hussein did – RIGHT?

    There is something in what he says isn’t there – and the jewish atheists cannot STAND that – RIGHT?


    IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU WORRY ABOUT ARABS GAINING IN EDUCATION AND TECHNOLOGY:

    This is why you make it difficult for Palestinian children to have education – you bomb their schools, you shoot them, injure them, cripple them, imprison them, murder them when they are young....

    you invade their towns and cities and destroy their books, printers, computers, and other resources for education.

    Who was it that said, “the greatest threat to ‘israel’ is the mothers, pregnant mothers, and children, (not the men) as they are the future of the Arabs.” -?

    jewish atheist ARIEL SHARON.

    He considered the future and resources of the Arabs and abomination to ‘israel’.


    Seeing that your elected evil entities get away with murder, I find it hilarious how you pimp Ahmadinejad, Hussein, Arafat, and others to the media as if to put them all in one boat- but you embrace these guys, they serve your purposes anyway.

    If you can bomb and murder relentlessly, without conscience, so as to wipe our children, our future off the map because of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Ahmadinejad……

    Then by International Law we can triple our revenge against ‘israel’ because of Sharon, Begin, Shamir, Meir, Barak, Netanyahu and the rest.....

    Oh.

    We can’t, can we?

    We are not technologically advanced as ‘israel’ is.

    Who controls our borders?

    ‘israel’

    Who gets five billion plus a year from N.A. and others?

    ‘israel’

    Who has the biggest trade in weaponry, stock in WMD, and has building nuclear weapons since 1958?

    ‘israel’

    Who has savage blood ties with the N.A. Media?

    ‘israel’

    Who doesn’t want peace?

    C’mon now…be HONEST!

    ‘israel’

    ReplyDelete
  47. E,

    I said that while the drivers for the establishment of a “Jewish” state are moral thing themselves, the instruments were amoral, if not evil. Comparative morality – as in, “I am better than X or Y” is not really a remedy. Healing starts with honesty. In the last century, Turkey and “Israel” in this region have committed genocide invariably against Armenians, Kurds, and Arabs in case of “Israel”. Now a justification such as, but the Germans did the same to the Slavs, and the Japanese did that to the Koreans, or the Iraqis did that to the Kurds, and the Hutus did that to the Tutsis does not justify, and does not qualify as an excuse or an explanation or a remittance.

    “Israel” has to accept its bloody past, and only then can it move ahead to be part of this region. Otherwise, it will just move... eventually. You can reject, I can stress it for a long time.

    Factors change. How many in 1939 could think that France and Germany will open up? The bitter enemies since 1870. Believe it or not, intermarriage is not the only indicator. Let me tell you how I see things: the Etat-Nation is a transitional form of state which is not always successful. It can succeed, but it can also fail. A European state, then the European Union is an example of good and the better. Now you will tell me that Europe has more in common in terms of religion, geography, and customs than do the Jews and the Palestinians/Arabs. I can answer that yet with all those commonalities, they managed to fight for centuries. It took the will to change. Never eliminate the possibilities.

    I was in reading a research about safety and security the other day. Of course it didn’t have anything to do with “Israel”. Then I recalled the possible army of “Israeli” robotics of the 22nd century! To beat that, you do not need an equal army of robotics, but one smart person, and one small “bug”. It’s just a matter of time. This bug metaphorically was a horn – the tumbling walls of Jericho, and a sling shot of a shepherd boy against the giant, and a left-handed dagger!

    E. I am a compassionate person, and I fear that I am one of a few. I believe that unless we bring up tomorrow together, only one of us will have one; I refused to have my children be like “you” by repeating your same mistakes; Victims turned oppressors are the worst kind of oppressors. The only way to stop the nightmare is to turn on the light.

    “Godly”? Now that is mean considering you’re an atheist. -:) I agree with Rhiannon that I cannot conceive the term of Atheist-Jews. The greatest abdicator of all was none but Karl Marx who said : Je suis un citoyen du monde. Giving up religion and race means taking up a higher faith, a faith in Man.

    The walls will fall – for the good or for the better. I am afraid we are erecting the gas chambers and the guilty conscience cells of our children with our own hands... the term self defense is the first brick in that wall.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Fadi,
    When I see the different sects in Lebanon getting along, I will start believing in your vision. It took two world wars to convince the Europeans that peace is the better option. We don't need that kind of process in the middle east.

    Godly means with qualties usually attributed to God, and one can use the word without believing in God. I hope I didn't insult you :).

    I think you are smart enough to conceive the concept of an atheist Jew. You are just reluctant to accept it. That is fine. I am not convinced also that the Palestinians are a separate nation from the Syrians or Egyptians. As long as you respect my right to decide who I am, we have no argument.

    Since you seem to understand what Rhiannon is saying, how about posting and explaining one point he makes that you agree with?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  49. Hi e, keefak -

    The different sects in Lebanon are not fighting anymore; they are actually divided among themselves along odd and quite ununderstandable political lines, and yes they can clash, but it won't be sectarian. I posted earlier a study I did on a house of many mansions by Dr. Kamal Salibi. Getting along does not mean be a replica or an army of robots with same concepts. We are not meant to be the same, but we are meant to be together. No one says our struggle is over, but why should WE keep YOU waiting? No one is questioning our presence.

    To restore them to his grace, God says the Israelites should “…seek justice, rescue the oppressed…” (Is. 1:17) At a different time, speaking through Malachi, God says, “Then I will draw near to you for judgment, I will be swift to bear witness against…those who oppress the…widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien...” (Mal. 3:5).

    I agree with God, quoted by Rhianon.

    I am also inclined to believe in ZIONIST RULE #1 & #2 (sic) – Denial, and fragmenting dialogue so as to NOT have peace, and to NOT get along with surrounding. Now the intentions can be malicious, or simply – gravely distorted. There is always a tendency to move the "battles" into someone else's turf. I do not feel it serves any purpose on the discussion of integrating "Israel" in its surrounding. If it doesn't integrate, it won't stand. I don’t care if it doesn't of course; I care about not being the same savages our oppressors once were. I believe I clarified that pacifist view earlier.

    I know what the word Godly was, I was trying to make a joke.

    I am smart; let me tell you about my view of atheism. We were all brought up (or maybe not, but generally) to think of God – an authority – a given rule. Now I "Personally"believe there is a creator who is all loving and all encompassing, but I do not believe in people's God – in that sense I am an atheist. We have made God to look like us, to kill, hate, and destroy like us. Now I do not believe in that God. (Read my article God Telecom).

    I believe that atheism is the break of traditional chains on one's mind, on one's social, political, sexual, etc… chains. One breaks free of a dogmatic God. Now Judaism or Zionism – the way I sense you interpret are dogmas. A dogma is a belief or set of beliefs that a political, philosophical, or moral/imoral group holds to be true – a dogmatic person's god may not live in Heaven, but he has a God of his own. In my interpretation, I believe that Judaism, like Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism, is a religious belief or a way of life. In your interpretation, it is a choice made by a group of people. Let's say that I disagree with the word dogmatic—in that sense, you are a theist, you believe in a God, but this god happens not to live in heaven. It's nothing against you, it's just something against the term. Now if you said you were a Jewish Zionist - this debate would have been: How can you believe in a religion and yet commit what is against its teachings. Before you cite the example: same applies to catholic church mass genocides, to so called Islamic "fundamentalism", etc.. hence I used the term "rubbish" in an earlier comment.

    Now I wrote that in a hurry, hope I made some sense.

    I fully agree that the Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese, and "Israelis" should grow to see each other as one people – I fully agree there is no difference. We fully respect your freedom to make your choices; that is not the source of the argument. The source of the argument is: Zionism made a choice for a group of people at other people's expense. Now you are defending that choice in partial "absolutes". That's where we cannot swallow it. We are not denying you the choice; we are contesting the deprivation of it by "you".

    I also agree with Rhianon that the financial and political aid to "Israel" over the last 35 years has had its toll. Now I am not saying it fully covers all of that entity's expenses (remember), the zionist settlers(?) did not have to pay rent or buy houses. A booster of any country. If you know a game called SIM CITY. Assume Israel receives 2 billion dollars a year in financial aid. Now pure business logic says that in the best of cases, money in a bank doubles every 7 years because of compounded interest. If you invest that money in higher returns, it will probably double every 2-3 years. Now if quick math says the real value of the aid is something like 100 billion dollars. I can do the exact math over my NPV program if you want, and I can tell you the real dollar value.

    Now if you take money and inject it into an economy, there is something called the multiplier effect. That multiplier is on average 4-7 times. So, government injects 1 billion in spending, the real economic growth is 4-7 times. How, you get a subsidy, you buy a car, car salesperson buys a house (from a settler who robbed it from a Palestinian), and the settler buys a ticket and moves to Madagascar, and the travel agent deposits money in bank, and an industrialist takes a loan to build a factory to pay salaries to people who will also buy cars and tickets to Madagascar.

    To eat apples, you do not transplant a whole tree, that would be costly and might not always work. For the price of an apple tree, you buy (or rob) a piece of land, plant 300 apple seedlings, invest in an irrigation system (water stolen from Lebanon), and in 10 years you end up with 300 trees.

    Now I was a bit graphic and in rough terms, but that’s economics 101 with a pinch of agricultural demo.

    We are not denying that the settlers are hard working people, but let's say they didn’t have to pay for rent, or to desalinate water, or to worry about financing for some time. I am surprised Israel is not doing better economically. Lebanon's per capita income is approx 5500-6000$. Now we have 40 billion dollars of debt, (more thanks to IDF), and have suffered from everything starting a 15 year civil war to 3 invasions and near eradications from 1973 onwards… If we take the per capita income of pre-war Lebanon (1975) and project it till 2006, theoretically we would probably be higher than "Israel's", without the financial aid.

    In other words, yes, Israel's economic success is a direct outcome of direct financial aid.

    Oh yes, "Israel" does not have to pay for weapons to destroy our economy either.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Fadi,
    I believe in practice what you preach. Lebanon is on the brink of civil war. The Lebanese cannot agree whether to be part of the West or part of the Syrian-Iran axis. Israel does not need to repeat this failed experience. Lebanon is a sore reminder that multi secterial states don't work in the mid east. When we see you succeed we will be convinced that it is doable. That is why we are waiting.

    I couldn't follow the part about atheism. Sorry.

    You economic analysis is amusing and incorrect. I have a degree in economics. $2B is peanuts for the Israeli economy. The aid to Israel is a drop in the bucket compared to the trillions the Arabs got from oil. Why is the multiplier effect not working there? Israel was able to develop a competitive western economy because it developed its human capital. The Arabs for some reason have not been able to do it. If it comforts you to think that the real reason is subsidies from abroad so be it, but you will never improve your situation if you think like that. Read the UN development reports that describe this problem.

    By the way, till 1948, every piece of land that the Jews obtained was purchased. We got nothing for free. The basic fact is that the Arabs should have accepted the 1947 UN partition plan. They had a choice and blew it. That is a pity. The Jews never forced them not to accept it.

    e

    ReplyDelete
  51. ZIONIST RULE#5

    When presented with excellent rhetoric,
    great examples for one to understand points, and reasoning skills, spoken with
    patience, thoroughness and explicitly…..

    We will provoke anger, irritation, and confusion for our debater by….

    BEING PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BY:

     PRETENDING WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING EXPLAINED TO US

     ASKING THE SAME QUESTIONS 3 OR 4 TIMES AND THEN SIMPLY DISAGREEING ANYWAY

     PRETENDING WE REALLY WANT DIALOGUE BUT IN FACT WE JUST WANT TO PLAY GAMES SO AS TO TAUNT THIS PERSON

     DISTORT, MUDDY, AND DISREGARD CLEAR POINTS

     PROVIDE HALF-ASSED ARGUMENTS AS TO OMIT IMPORTANT TRUTHS

     PRETENDING WE WANT PEACE WHEN IN FACT (SHHHH! - WE ARE A WARMONGERING PEOPLE AND WE LOVE OUR WARMONGERING GOVERNMENT OF ‘ISRAEL’)

     PRETENDING WE WANT PEACE WHEN (SHHHHH! - WE CANNOT WAIT TO INVADE LEBANON AGAIN BECAUSE WE DON’T WANT LEBANON TO SURPASS US IN ECONOMICAL GROWTH AND DEMOCRACY)

    I am not using caps to scream. I just want poor e – as in elephants that fly – to try to understand the words he doesn’t see well – poor widdo ting.

    ReplyDelete
  52. [according to Zionist rule #5]

    [the atheist jew] “The basic fact is that the Arabs should have accepted the 1947 UN partition plan. They had a choice and blew it. That is a pity. The Jews never forced them not to accept it.”


    The atheist jews never forced Arabs NOT to accept it?

    What distortion is this? Your last sentence is an utter and complete throwaway. You make absolutely no sense. I suppose you flung that in to make the atheist jews look ‘innocent’? Yes, that would be your scheme.

    The basic fact is the atheist jews never accepted the 1947 UN partition plan either.

    How you conveniently left that out.

    So let’s say the Palestinians accepted the partition plan. It would have not have made a difference because ATHEIST JEWS HAD NO INTENTIONS OF MAKING A TRUCE WITH THE PALESTINIANS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    Do not play games here.

    They didn’t blow it, there was nothing for them to blow away. Atheist jews were never going to give Palestine a state, be a nation, to have secure, free and peaceful borders, nor have an economy. Atheist jews planned from day one to create a slow motion holocaust for the Palestinians as to wipe them off the face of the map with Europe and USA-paid-for WMD.

    Atheist jews in stolen 'israel' have never defined their borders as chunk by chunk they keep stealing land from the Palestinians.

    ReplyDelete
  53. You are an atheist jew. You do not care about God, Jesus, or any of the other prophets of God. You hate and despise anything about God or Jesus. But you double-speak and say that God is on your side. You double-speak and sell to the world that Jesus was a Jew. You only package these blasphemies for sale so that you can hurt people.

    So I will bring back the topic of God and Jesus – as this is as pleasant a topic for you as long nails scratching and screeching across a chalkboard:

    To love and bless Israel means to hold Israel accountable, as did God, to the teachings of justice and peace by the prophets.

    There are twenty-one passages in the Old Testament that specifically give rights to aliens, Palestinians in the case of current Israel.

    Speaking thru the prophet Jeremiah, God said, “If you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt, then I will dwell with you in this place…” (Jer. 7:6-7).

    And “The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God” (Lev. 19:33-34).

    YET CHRISTIAN ZIONISM OMITS THESE TWENTY ONE PASSAGES FROM THEIR NARRATIVE.

    The Great Commandment given by Jesus:

    “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    ========
    [ramban] “I don’t care about Lebanon”.
    ========

    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Mt. 22:34-40).

    ========

    The apostle Paul writes:

    “For [Christ] is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us” (Eph. 2:14).

    Because in Christ “There is no longer Jew or Greek” (Gal. 3:28-29), we are called to show such kindness toward all of God’s people.

    ==========

    WE AS INDIVIDUALS ARE NOT BLESSED; THE UNITED STATES IS NOT BLESSED, NOR IS ISRAEL BLESSED IF WE ENCOURAGE AND SUPPORT ISRAEL IN ITS VIOLATION OF OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES.

    ==========

    BTW I am a she, not a he.

    ReplyDelete
  54. And that would be:

    ZIONIST RULE #1 & #2 & #3.

    Reject, Refute, debase, Steal.

    See how easy it was to make you fall in the trap.

    I don’t blame you, we ARE on opposite sides after all.

    Back to square one. We will never stop until we win, give it your best shot.

    I wish the end of the so called “Israel” is peaceful and civil, and I pray that is achieved through integration. Otherwise, as I keep saying, I’m not the one who will be calling the shots or stopping them.

    As for other comments regarding other people’s business, I would add a Zionist Rule #6: wish and work for evil.

    ReplyDelete
  55. I am still reading these threads. It did get a little heated there for minute, but I think you both smiled.

    Three points;

    1.) Lebanon should move toward Europe. She should align herself with the West, much like Turkey has. Her furture is brighter both economically, socially and stability wise to do so. She needs to free herself of Hezbolleh, or asimilate them into a recognized and accountable military force.

    2.) Israel needs to stop the poor treatment of Palestinians. The building of walls and settlements is provocative. The frustrations of endless security checkpoints, and the difficulty of average life is creating more threats than they are subsiding. Furthermore these policies smack of totalitarianism, and legitimise's their acts of terror in parts of the Arab world.

    3.) The Palestinians should recognize Israel, and come to grips with this reality. They should demand the same treatment of their citizens living in Arab countries, that they are demanding of Israel. The Palestinians are treated as second class citizens through-out the region. They would be best served with their own State living in peace, than continuous turmoil that is limiting their dignity and leaves them more vunerable to abuse. They also should be more resposible in their electronic communications and education of their youth. War is not an education, it is ignorance.

    These are a few thoughts from an outsider looking in.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Basically, as you are a “Jewish” person, you are really saying that to be a child of God is of no importance but to be a Jew is everything.

    Of course, you are wrong but that is what you are saying.

    But then why wouldn’t you regard your jewishness highly, even if it makes no sense? You have been wined and dined and thought of as a highly prized individual by Christian Zionists for so long that that you have begun to believe that load of crap.

    The Bible makes it utterly clear that to be a jew or not is of no significance in our relationship to God. God is no respector of any race.

    ReplyDelete
  57. The little Buddha is back:

    "The Palestinians should recognize Israel, and come to grips with this reality."

    Did you get these words from a "How To Be A Zionist But Say You Are A Buddhist?" pamplet?

    Do you have any idea how many times those words have been said on all the fanatical zionist TV channels in Neocon N.A. and for 30 years?

    Do you think you are being clever?

    Did you think you said something NEW and ORIGINAL and INSPIRING with that zionist-neocon dull rote?

    Well maybe Palestine would recognize 'israel' if she could get the BLOOD OUT OF HER EYES and take a break from BURYING HER CHILDREN.

    ReplyDelete
  58. My 9:09 AM, November 01, 2006 comment was to e.

    ============

    [emory/buddha] "They also should be more resposible in their electronic communications and education of their youth. War is not an education, it is ignorance."

    Perhaps you should take your pipes, incense, candles, pillows and Deepak Chopra books and have a meditation with the fanatical atheist jews in Hebron.

    Why don't you explain it THEM? THat war is not an education, it is ignorance?

    Why don't you tell the fanatical atheist jewish settlers in Hebron to be more responsible in their electronic communications and education of their youth?

    Might do a world of good for the Palestinian children trying to go to school and get a decent education themselves

    ReplyDelete
  59. Fadi,
    Where you responding to me?
    Which trap did I fall into?
    Let's discuss the 1947 partition plan. It is a well known historical fact that the Jews supported it and that the Arabs didn't. The Jews lobbied for it in the UN. Why would they do that if they didn't support it? The Jews were celebrating when the resolution was accepted. Almost 100% of the Jewish population supported this resolution and there are newsreels of people dancing in the street after the vote in the UN. I am really suprised that you think that Jews didn't support it.

    Let me remind you that both the US and Russia supported it and there was a 2/3 majority in the UN for it.

    It is quite obvious that it was a mistake for the Arabs not to support it. Whatever they get now is going to be less than the 47 plan and also in the meanwhile sevral generations of Palestinians have suffered.

    Rhiannon,
    Any argument that you start with "you really think" or "you really didn't" is a non starter and a waste of time to respond to. I don't know what you think and you don't know what I think. Building an argument on what you imagine I think or believe makes no sense. I wish the Arabs had accepted the 47 UN partition plan. It would have been best for everybody. It was a missed historical oppportunity that we are all paying for.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Emory,
    You are experiencing what happens to honest brokers in the middle east and why the problem is so intractable. Keep trying though. Maybe Rhiannon will eventually believe that you are trying to find a fair compromise and that you are not part of the Zionist-Jewish cabal. For what it is worth, I truly appreciate your effort.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  61. e,
    We have a term in Lebanese which goes: Ballah Shou?? As in - Huh?!

    I was referring to the trap, namely Zionist ZIONIST RULE #1 & #2 & #3. Reject, Refute, debase, Steal. Instead of sticking to the argument, you refute it by either rejecting its validity, refuting the statement, debasing it, and throwing sand into one's eyes by redirecting attention. Now the case does not rest here. Rule#6 is wishing and working for evil.

    The jewish settlers were celebrating. Well bly me I should be happy. Of course, if I steal and get away with it, watch me teach you how to dance.

    The UN? Oh yes sure. I won't even go to the UN partiality and ineffectiveness, I will just assume the UN is respectable, and that Arabs did not abide by the UN resolutions, there are 160 UN resolutions that Israel has not abided by since 1948 - Literally, ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY. I have the list. Pick a year from 1948 onwards -

    Guess what, if the Lebanese start killing each other, you should be worried too. We're a mad people at the brink of civil war, aren't we?? Half the weapons will be on the boders hitting Israel, and we can play the invade-resist-invade game again. By the time we have nothing more to lose, every loss is yours - and they will keep coming at you.

    This time, perhaps some mad terrorist sneaks a nuclear or chemical bomb in. You know what? I just hope he drops it over you, you die, we fry, and you throw another back. The world will be rid of both Jews and Arabs. If Hitler weren't successful in killing jews, then the Jews should go ahead and get themselves killed being so arrogant. Arabs can die too, we can use a population decrease - and what's 150 million? One life, one milion lives, six million lives, one hundred fifty million lives. No need to worry, the jewish settlers were dancing.. Well let them dance to what's coming to them, and to us. Let them dance over the graves of the dead... If there's anybody left.

    I am sorry this has to end this way, but I fail to see how you wish to carry it forth. Selective Historic Amnesia gives me allergy.
    Future visual impairement drives me nuts.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Fadi,
    I am trying to understand.
    Why shouldn't have the Arabs accepted the partition of 1947? Why wasn't it an historic mistake?
    The situation would have been better, no? Wouldn't we be in a better situation if they had?

    If anyway the solution is a two state one, maybe leading to a one state solution, as we both agree, than why not have started with it in 47? the Arabs would have had more land and there would not have been wars. Please explain what is wrong with my analysis.

    e

    ReplyDelete
  63. The majority of the Jews and Jewish groups accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation.

    A MINORITY OF EXTREME NATIONALIST JEWISH GROUPS LIKE MENACHEM BEGIN'S IRGUN TSVAI LEUMI AND YITZHAK SHAMIR'S LEHI, (KNOWN AS THE STERN GANG) WHICH HAD BEEN FIGHTING THE BRITISH, REJECTED IT.

    BEGIN WARNED THAT THE PARTITION WON'T BRING PEACE BECAUSE THE ARABS WILL ALSO ATTACK THE SMALL STATE AND THAT "IN THE WAR AHEAD WE'LL HAVE TO STAND ON OUR OWN, IT WILL BE A WAR ON OUR EXISTENCE AND FUTURE". Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in Israel's acquisition of independence, and many Israeli cities commemerate the date in their streets' names. HOWEVER, JEWS DID CRITICISE THE LACK OF TERRITORIAL CONTINUITY FOR THE JEWISH STATE.


    ZIONISTS DID NOT ACCEPT THE UN PARTITION PLAN. ZIONISTS SEIZED AREAS BEYOND THE PROPOSED JEWISH STATE AND DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE INTERNATIONAL ZONE.

    USING FORCE AND TERRORISM MONTHS BEFORE MAY 1948, JEWS SEIZED LAND BEYOND THE UN PROPOSED BORDERS.

    THE UN PLAN WAS USED AS A PRETENSE FOR TAKING OVER MOST OF PALESTINE.

    ReplyDelete
  64. This is a critical fact often omitted when the history is presented and this leads to a very distorted view of what happened in 1948.

    THE MISLEADING STORY OFTEN TOLD IS THAT "JEWS DECLARED ISRAEL AND THEN THEY WERE ATTACKED."

    THE FACT IS FROM NOVEMBER 1947 TO MAY 1948 THE ZIONISTS WERE ALREADY ON THE OFFENSIVE AND HAD ALREADY ATTACKED ARABS.

    IN THE MONTHS BEFORE ISRAEL WAS DECLARED, THE ZIONISTS HAD DRIVEN 300,000 NON-JEWS OFF THEIR LAND.

    IN THE MONTHS BEFORE ISRAEL WAS DECLARED, THE ZIONISTS HAD SEIZED LAND BEYOND THE PROPOSED JEWISH STATE.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Rhiannon,
    You agree that the majority of the Jews accepted the 47 partition plan. Why didn't the Arabs accept the plan? It is a simple question.
    It would have been best for all involved. Don't you agree?

    Ben Gurion hated Begin's guts and would have ordered the Haganah to shot the Irgun terrorists if they tried to stop the partition plan, just as Ben Gurion ordered to shot the Irgun ship Altelena.

    Don't try to muddle the issues. You are right that small scale war started right after the UN vote. But it was because the Arabs rejected the partition plan. Your claim that the Jews rejected the plan is just plain wrong and contrary to any historical description of the events. The Jews supported the plan and actively lobbied for it. Are you going to deny this too? Why did they do it if they didn't support it?

    Why did the Arabs reject the plan and don't you agree that it was a mistake?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  66. IT IS THE ZIONISTS THAT PUSHED FOR THE RADICAL IDEA THAT THE LAND BE DIVIDED UP SO THAT A "PURE" RACIALLY ESTABLISHED STATE OF JEWS COULD BE ESTABLISHED.

    They didn't want to live as equal citizens as is expected of all religions in America.

    BUT THE DIVISION WAS ONLY CONSIDERED TEMPORARY BY THEM SINCE THEIR GOAL WAS AND IS TO TAKE OVER ALL OF PALESTINE.

    THE KEY ZIONISTS HAD NO INTENTION OF ACCEPTING THAT UN PARTITION, a recommendation to chop up Palestine into 7 parts.

    67% of the population didn't want that done.

    IN 1938 BEN-GURION SAID TO OTHER ZIONISTS, “AFTER WE BECOME A STRONG FORCE, AS THE RESULT OF THE CREATION OF A STATE, WE SHALL ABOLISH THE PARTITION AND EXPAND TO THE WHOLE OF PALESTINE.”

    Jewish atheist Menachem Begin

    Sure enough, after the creation of the state in 1948, Menachem Begin made clear how serious the “Jews accepting the UN partition” was in reality.....

    “THE PARTITION OF THE HOMELAND IS ILLEGAL . IT WILL NEVER BE RECOGNIZED.
    THE SIGNATURE OF INSTITUTIONS AND INDIVIDUALS OF THE PARTITION AGREEMENT IS INVALID.
    IT WILL NOT BIND THE JEWISH PEOPLE.

    Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital.

    Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever“.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Why is the rejection of the 1937 Peel Partition plan justifiable according to many Zionists, but the Arabs' rejection of the 1947 UN GA Partition plan is not?

    ReplyDelete
  68. The mindless ramblings of a jewish atheist who enjoys badgering and playing games:

    "You agree that the majority of the Jews accepted the 47 partition plan."

    YOU DO NOT READ WELL. RE-READ AND STOP MUDDYING UP ISSUES.

    ===================

    "small scale war started right after the UN vote. But it was because the Arabs rejected the partition plan."

    YOU DO NOT READ WELL. RE-READ AND STOP MUDDYING UP ISSUES.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I don't read well? You wrote:
    "The majority of the Jews and Jewish groups accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation."

    What does this mean except that you agree that the majority of the Jews accepted the 47 partition? I am really baffled.

    The entire segment you copied from wikipedia reads as follows:
    "The majority of the Jews and Jewish groups accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. A minority of extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi, (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British, rejected it."
    Which proves my point exactly. The majority of Jews supported the plan. A minority rejected it. Read the text.
    The wikipedia link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

    The Begin quotes are irrelevant. He was a minority voice and as I said, Ben Gurion would not even talk to him.

    Both the Jews and the Arabs rejected the Peel plan. The Jews later acknowledged that this was a huge mistake and therefore supported the 47 partition plan. The Arabs didn't understand that they made a mistake and didn't support the 47 plan.

    You still didn't answer my question. Why did the Arabs reject the 47 partition plan? Why can't you answer this simple question? Why wouldn't they accept a peaceful compromise? Why did they risk war with the Jews? We could have had the solution everybody is talking about now already in 47 and the Arabs would have had much more land.
    Why is it so difficult to Admit that Arabs can make mistakes?

    ReplyDelete
  70. And just to be clear on who was seeking a military solution see the quote below from the wikipedia article you were quoting. After failing in their appeal to the international court:

    "Meeting in Cairo in November and December of 1947, the Arab League then adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

    Who was looking for war then? The Jews that accepted the partition or the Arabs that wanted a military solution? Why can't you for once accept the facts?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  71. "The Begin quotes are irrelevant. He was a minority voice and as I said, Ben Gurion would not even talk to him."

    Here is where your WHOLE ARGUMENT FALLS APART.

    You just gave me a piece of JUNK. ZIONIST-jewish atheist- double-talk JUNK.

    In other words "us poor jews did so much for the nasty Arabs!"

    Complete LIE. You know it and so you play your ZIONIST RULES AKA GAME-PLAYING. Feigning innocence.

    ==============

    I copied that part ALL from wikepedia. EASILY ALTERED, NOT RELIABLE WIKEPEDIA.

    I notice you put the positive-innocent zionist intention twice in your post. Those aren't my words. THat is YOUR WIKEPEDIA.

    I made a point that wikepedia also made fact of Begin being against the partition, which is MOST REVEALING - AND NOW YOU ARE NOT SO INNOCENT AFTER ALL.

    Zionist rule # 7

    Play up the Positive good stuff (even though it is a LIE) about zionist intentions.

    Play way down and ignore the Negative Bad stuff about the zionist intention (even though it is the TRUTH).

    ReplyDelete
  72. MORE ZIONIST FABRICATIONS, DISTORTIONS, GAMES, MANIPULATIONS, AND LIES.

    The ramblings of a jewish atheist:

    "What does this mean except that you agree that the majority of the Jews accepted the 47 partition? I am really baffled."

    That info came from wikepedia. Not everything in wikepedia is clear, true, or factual. Now I know how much those words hurt you zionist eyes.

    Now. I also included the Menecham Begin item AGAINST THE 47 PARTITION BECAUSE THIS INFO IS IN OTHER PLACES AS WELL. I pasted that in my next post, too.

    I do not agree to anything that is to YOUR LIKING SWEETIE. Don't put intentions and words into my mouth and mind. Your arrogance and conceit are stifling at best.

    Those majority of jews meant nothing, anyway, if they did agree, as YOU SAY and wikepedia says.

    Shortly AFTER, the massacres of the Palestinians began - did the majority of those jews care?

    Who were some of the leaders and creators (among others) of these massacres against the Palestinians to murder, steal more land, and their belongings-looting - in 1947?

    Menachem Begin
    Ariel Sharon
    Ben Gurion

    ReplyDelete
  73. Rhiannon,
    You quoted wikipedia first to make a point and when this backfired you are saying it is not a reliable source? Please, be serious. The article in wikipedia is not even disputed. It is an article that is accepted as correct by the wikipedia community, so please just accept the facts.

    Now you are arguing that you know the intentions of people 60 years ago and that their actions don't matter? They lobbied for the partition, they danced in the street when it passed yet you know that their intention was that it won't pass. Are you joking? Every single action of the majority of the Jews showed that they wanted and accepted the partition.

    You still haven't answered my question. Why did the Arabs reject the partition and decide on war? Did or did not the Arabs meet in November and December of 47 and decide on pursuing a military solution? The Arabs are in fact responsible for the war of 48 because they didn't accept the partition plan, aren't they?

    Anti zionist rule #1: Deny obvious historical facts that everybody agrees to even when you quoted them yourself as evidence.

    e

    ReplyDelete
  74. Rhiannon,
    Wake up. If the Arabs would have accepted the 47 partition plan there would not have been any war. It is as simple as that. The Arabs met in November and December of 47 and decided on the military option. They are responsible for the war and its outcome.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  75. MORE ZIONIST FABRICATIONS, DISTORTIONS, GAMES, MANIPULATIONS, AND LIES.

    The ramblings of a jewish atheist:

    "The majority of Jews supported the plan. A minority rejected it. Read the text.
    The wikipedia link:"

    THe zionists aka jewishatheists LOVE their wikepedia. Like it's another god for them to WORSHIP.

    But I digress.

    The majority of the jews accepted the plan?

    So what?

    They had NO POWER. They go along with their LEADERSHIP. THeir was NO REVOLT against:

    BEGIN
    SHARON
    BEN GURION

    You telling me - like your handing me a piece of limp lettuce and calling it a meal - that bengurion and begin didn't get a long, I have this to say:

    Whoop dee doo, and who gives a RAT'S ASS?

    I'm sure all the HUNDREDS OF slaughtered Palestinian men , women, and children didn't give a fig, EITHER.

    ReplyDelete
  76. MORE ZIONIST FABRICATIONS, DISTORTIONS, GAMES, MANIPULATIONS, AND LIES.

    The crumbling ramblings of a jewish atheist:


    "They lobbied for the partition, they danced in the street when it passed yet you know that their intention was that it won't pass. Are you joking? Every single action of the majority of the Jews showed that they wanted and accepted the partition."

    =============

    Of course they did. They had slaughtered Palestinian men, women, and children since the mid-30s!

    Of course they LIED and said they were DEFENDING THEMSELVES against 'hostile' arabs, but they LIE when they say that.

    So sure they danced in the streets and accepted the partition because:

    They were already dancing on the graves of the Palestinians.

    They knew or didn't know that the intentions of their Leadership was planning another massacre, therefore more murder, displacement of Arab people and stealing of Arab land.

    Of course they accepted the Partition and danced in the streets.

    Their powerful, vicious, monster leaders DID NOT accept the Partition and had no intention of honoring it.

    And they didn't.

    And you know that, my little zionist peakfrean jewishatheist.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Rhiannon,
    Now you are fabricating history completley. Ben Gurion sent Aba Even to lobby for the 47 partition plan. Ben Gurion supported it. There is no historical doubt whatsoever. The Zionist movement was democratic and most of the leaders supported Ben Gurion.

    Your inability to accept history is amazing.

    The Arabs rejected the 47 plan and are reponsible for the war of 48 and its results. Learn to live with it.

    Don't you realize how foolish you look?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  78. Fadi,
    Do you also think the wikipedia article is inaccurate?
    e

    ReplyDelete
  79. MORE ZIONIST FABRICATIONS, DISTORTIONS, GAMES, MANIPULATIONS, AND LIES.

    The crumbling ramblings of a jewish atheist:


    the topic jewishatheist kept beating me up about:

    "Wake up. If the Arabs would have accepted the 47 partition plan there would not have been any war. It is as simple as that. The Arabs met in November and December of 47 and decided on the military option. They are responsible for the war and its outcome."

    and I say:

    Why is the rejection of the 1937 Peel Partition plan justifiable according to many Zionists, but the Arabs' rejection of the 1947 UN GA Partition plan is not?

    Didn't answer me on that one.

    I will answer:

    The Arabs rejected Peel becuase it was a most Humiliating and inhuman proposal for their integrity and livelihood - and you knew that.

    Here is the answer from one of your own in detail:

    Moshe Sharett, a most ardent of Zionists explains why the Arabs rejected the 1947 Partition and were justified to do so:

    "In contrast to the jews, the Palestinians would lose totally that part of Palestine which they consider to be Arab country; they would lose the richest part of Palestine.

     They would lose major Arab assets, the orange plantations

     Commericial and industrial centers

     The most important sources of revenue for their government which would become impoverished

     They would lose most of the coastal area, which would also be loss to the hinterland [Palestinian] Arab states

    This would be such an uprooting, such a shock, the likes of which had never occurred and could drown the whole thing in rivers of blood....."

    With the Peel proposal the Arabs are alotted a good 60% to 70% more land than the '47 Partition!

    If Moshe Sharett describes the healthy, prosperous, abundant resources, and fertility of land given to the Jews and NOT the Arabs in 1937 Peel.....

    Then WHY should the Arabs settle for so much less - an undignified, inhuman 60-70% of LESS LAND in the 47 partition?

    That's why your jewish atheists were dancing in the streets on the graves of Palestinians and the future graves of Palestinians BECAUSE:

    begin
    sharon
    bengurion

    WANTED IT ALL. THEY WANTED NOTHING FOR THE ARABS.

    The majority of the jews didn't care anyway and they had no power and they followed their leadership into the next MASSACRE OF ARAB PEOPLE AFTER THE 47 PARTITION.

    And all within those years from the 30s and on, zionists from europe were piling in like gangs of thugs, time after time, to buy up more land and cause trouble among the Arabs and begin their Massacres.

    So between '35 and '48 vicious crimes of murder of ARabs by zionists were going on ..

    Even before 1935, the zionists were coming in from Europe and purchasing land in alarming rates.

    The Arabs were beginning to understand their fate.

    You gave them no choice but to fight back. And they lost, because they didn't have your candy weapons and candy cash from Europe and USA.

    Your ancestors murdered those people and stole their land and you DARE to say you got nothing for free?

    And pigs fly...

    and traffic lights in tel aviv flash green and red at the same time...

    and you are a jewishatheist...

    ReplyDelete
  80. Oh yes I answered you about
    Peel. you don't read:
    "Both the Jews and the Arabs rejected the Peel plan. The Jews later acknowledged that this was a huge mistake and therefore supported the 47 partition plan. The Arabs didn't understand that they made a mistake and didn't support the 47 plan."
    Here is Ben Gurion regretting not accepting the peel plan:
    "Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel"

    Again you contradict yourself. If the Peel proposal was so good for the Arabs, why did they reject it? They should have accpeted it.

    The Arabs had no choice but to fight back because the Jews were buying land? Boy are you a racist. The Jews are not allowed to buy land.

    Nothing is good for you. Even Jews buying land in Palestine and living on it. That is enough to justify aggression by the Arabs according to you.

    The rejection of the 47 partition plan was a huge mistake on the part of the Palestinians. Whatever they will get now is much less than what was offered then. You have only yourself to blame for this.

    Do you support a two state solution like Fadi by the way? What kind of solution do you support?

    ReplyDelete
  81. And by the way, the Arabs lost and will continue losing because they can't admit making mistakes and then learning from them as you have proved.
    Develop your human capital. Look within you for your problems. Not outside.
    Then maybe one day people will take you seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Wikipedia SUCKS. It is infested with fanatical Jewish supremacists - I have spent months trying to improve and balance out articles about this conflict, but zionist psychos are in there 24-7 deleting everything and replacing it with crap.

    All of this zionist pingpong all over the blogs. His racist government pays him.

    All this creep does spout racist filth on blogs.

    rhannon, youre in dialogue with a racist warmongerer. His feigned ignorance is cute but the strategy is the age-old Zionist game of "change the subject" - no matter what you say, no matter how comprehensive yours or Fadi’s knowledge or skill, or how much effort and time you put into it, he will skim over it, without reading, without thinking, without anything. Zero impact. He'll move on to the next zionist propaganda point. In the end you will be back where you started. It's a waste of breath. Ultimately nothing you can say matters for zionists because for them it's all about Jews, Jewish history, Jewish suffering, Jewish security - nothing else matters, except in a secondary or teriary way at best.

    ReplyDelete
  83. BBB,
    We have a new term here. So here on this blog it is jewishatheist suffering, jewishatheist security, and jewishatheist history.

    Yes, I have learned this about wikepedia. I won't post anything from that source again.

    He latches on to that one bit in wikepedia like a dog to a bone.

    grrrrrrrr!

    ReplyDelete
  84. Dear Fadi,

    I was debating so much that I forgot to tell you how much I laughed when you told of your mother's reaction to the jewishatheist explanation of a jewishatheist.

    I have a good memory of my grandmother sitting in her favourite velvet green chair and I am asking her about ariel sharon.

    Right away her face darkened and she put her big strong hands together (she did a lot of cooking, gardening, and sewing when she was alive) and twisted her fingers around each other and said in tight angry voice:

    "I'd like to take his face in my hands and pull the skin of his face."

    ReplyDelete
  85. MORE ZIONIST FABRICATIONS, DISTORTIONS, GAMES, MANIPULATIONS, AND LIES.

    The crumbling ramblings of a jewish atheist:

    "If the Peel proposal was so good for the Arabs, why did they reject it? They should have accpeted it."

    I answered this 3 times. Yes BBW, you are right! Notice the sham of the jewishatheist pretending IT didn't see, hear, understand?

    ANSWER:


    None of the partitions were good for Arabs. They were both scathingly unfair, RACIST toward ARabs, suffocating and mean-spirited.

    But the jewishatheists rejected the Peel because they WANTED MORE in spite of the fact they were getting the BEST OF ARAB LAND while the Arabs got mostly barren land.

    In reality the jewishatheists wanted it all.

    ===============

    Your 'israel' will continue to lose spiritually, humanly, and prosperously because 'israel' cannot admit its mistakes.

    Nothing is good for you. You cannot accept the fact that jewishatheists coming from Europe eventually murdered Arabs for their land.

    THe Arabs did nothing to you. The jewishatheists were a bunch of monsters who conceitedly felt they deserved the Palestinian land.

    On this whole earth, the jewishatheists are the biggest contradiction of people there could ever be.

    These Jewishatheists do not have a drop of semite blood in their bodies. They committed Fraud, theft, and murder.

    ReplyDelete
  86. e,

    A few comments and a response to your inquiry:
    1- I sense you are opening up as a racist preacher and fail to see that at this article, the Zionist dogma is on trial (we can trial whatever other dogmas on other articles). If I were you, I would save my breath demeaning Arabs or lovingly guiding them to what they should do. In other words, when under trial, respond to the charges, not throw ones – it's not serving the purpose of the ARGUMENT. It's an "I accuse you" argument.

    2- I have a degree in Business &Economics, and working on my MA in History and International Relations – in response to belittling the "layman's terminology to foreign aid and multiplier effect," I'm quite amazed you actually contested the economic side yet did not respond to the "stealing," part. I'm sure economists should revisit the "windfall" effect of UN resolutions granting property and foreign financing on the economies of leech societies – great topic for an MA in Economic History.

    3- On the UN resolutions, if the UN miraculously issues a Resolution for the partition of "Israel" into two, for a simple reason that 20-30% of that "entity" are Arabs (a hypothesis). How do you think you will respond? I am being hypothetical here. Do you agree, or will you go dig your ancestral claims to the right of national home? Why do you think you can fit one thing to another people but not to the Arabs in 1947?

    Well, guess what, assume the Arabs might have been slow to see what was coming to them back then. In 2002, the Arab Summit in Beirut offered a peace plan. Let's flip the coin here. Israel is lagging. We could have avoided bloodshed in the West Bank, a few dozen bombs in "Israeli" colonies, and 2006 war. Take a look at what's coming to you; if you were ever good perpetrators, you should know better than to repeat what you claim is our mistake as Arabs.

    (by the way, I can imagine how your response will be like, wish we had a secret box to guess your answers under the Zionist Response Manual).

    4- If by another miracle you say you will theoretically accept, then I can only urge you to please proceed with implementing the standing UN resolutions requiring protection of civilians for a start, and withdrawal from occupied neighboring lands. After all, "Israel" is a democracy; hence your voices are heard. For the fun of it, I will lash one unnecessary verbal abuse in response to your last under the belt sly comments..I should say,, talk to your government once your President gets his pants back-on..

    5- While Wikepedia is a very enlightening source of general information, I fear that it is not a historically valid one. It is subjective by nature, and there is no room for revision or for counterarguments or for fine-tuning of the information included or for representation of various arguments: My objective response, and from an academic standpoint, it's not a valid source for historic information.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Fadi,

    Please find my comments following each of your points.
    “1- I sense you are opening up as a racist preacher and fail to see that at this article, the Zionist dogma is on trial (we can trial whatever other dogmas on other articles). If I were you, I would save my breath demeaning Arabs or lovingly guiding them to what they should do. In other words, when under trial, respond to the charges, not throw ones – it's not serving the purpose of the ARGUMENT. It's an "I accuse you" argument. “

    You have advanced a theory that Israel’s economy is ahead of the Arab ones because of the direct subsidies from the US. I have advanced a much more likely theory that it is ahead because the Arabs under develop their human capital. The UN development reports written by Arabs explain exactly what is wrong and support my position. Most economists support my position. I don’t agree that advancing an alternative theory is making an accusation.

    Your theory has an obvious and serious flaw. It cannot explain why the oil money has not helped the Arabs even though it was 1000 times more than the direct subsidies to Israel.

    “2- I have a degree in Business &Economics, and working on my MA in History and International Relations – in response to belittling the "layman's terminology to foreign aid and multiplier effect," I'm quite amazed you actually contested the economic side yet did not respond to the "stealing," part. I'm sure economists should revisit the "windfall" effect of UN resolutions granting property and foreign financing on the economies of leech societies – great topic for an MA in Economic History.”

    Now you are accusing Israel of being a leech society. Please prove your point. What the UN resolution granted was irrelevant anyway because the Arabs didn’t accept it and it was never implemented. Israel gained land by war because the Arabs chose the military path in late 47.

    “3- On the UN resolutions, if the UN miraculously issues a Resolution for the partition of "Israel" into two, for a simple reason that 20-30% of that "entity" are Arabs (a hypothesis). How do you think you will respond? I am being hypothetical here. Do you agree, or will you go dig your ancestral claims to the right of national home? Why do you think you can fit one thing to another people but not to the Arabs in 1947?”

    What is your point here, that the Arabs should have rejected the 47 resolution and gone to war? I thought you are a pacifist. The Arabs could have accepted the resolution and sat down to negotiate. In fact they rejected the resolution and chose war. That is why the result of the war is their responsibility.

    Let’s say that tomorrow the UN issues the hypothetical resolution you suggest. If Israel rejects it, defies the international community, and goes to war instead, it is responsible for the results of the war and cannot complain about them. Israel would suffer the consequences of its decision just as the Arabs did. There is no double standard here.

    “Well, guess what, assume the Arabs might have been slow to see what was coming to them back then. In 2002, the Arab Summit in Beirut offered a peace plan. Let's flip the coin here. Israel is lagging. We could have avoided bloodshed in the West Bank, a few dozen bombs in "Israeli" colonies, and 2006 war. Take a look at what's coming to you; if you were ever good perpetrators, you should know better than to repeat what you claim is our mistake as Arabs.”

    Maybe Israel made a mistake in rejecting the 2002 Arab proposal. The problem for me with the 2002 proposal was that it was too vague. What does a “fair solution” to the Palestinian problem mean? The elephant in the room is the right of return to the 48 borders. The Saudis don’t know what to do with this issue and it is the stumbling block in all their proposals. If the Saudi initiative did not include the Palestinians returning to the 48 borders, then Israel made a mistake in rejecting the Saudi plan. If it did, it was not a mistake.

    If you are sincere about peace and a two state solution, then can you tell me that you agree to the following statement: ‘In retrospect, knowing what we know today, the Arabs should have accepted the 1947 UN partition plan even though it was unfair to them’. I am not asking you to say it was just or fair, only that as a practical solution it was better than what followed. Because if you can’t agree to this simple statement, why are you agreeing today to a two state solution that is worse for the Palestinians? You don’t think that is fair either. It doesn’t look sincere.

    “(by the way, I can imagine how your response will be like, wish we had a secret box to guess your answers under the Zionist Response Manual).”

    Now you can grade me on how well I do relative the ZPM. :)

    “4- If by another miracle you say you will theoretically accept, then I can only urge you to please proceed with implementing the standing UN resolutions requiring protection of civilians for a start, and withdrawal from occupied neighboring lands. After all, "Israel" is a democracy; hence your voices are heard. For the fun of it, I will lash one unnecessary verbal abuse in response to your last under the belt sly comments..I should say,, talk to your government once your President gets his pants back-on.. “

    Katsav is a worm and if found guilty should be in jail. You see, we hold our politicians accountable. As always, I urge practice what you preach. We should both start implementing UN resolutions together. Why don’t the Arabs give Israel a good example?
    “5- While Wikepedia is a very enlightening source of general information, I fear that it is not a historically valid one. It is subjective by nature, and there is no room for revision or for counterarguments or for fine-tuning of the information included or for representation of various arguments: My objective response, and from an academic standpoint, it's not a valid source for historic information.”

    I never quoted Wikipedia because there was no need. It is an undisputable historical fact that the Arabs rejected the partition plan while the majority of the Jews supported it. It was really amusing though that Rhiannon posted something without understanding that it proved my point and then backtracked and questioned the reliability of her own quote. I have never seen this happen before.

    ReplyDelete
  88. e:

    There goes the grading / degrading:

    Point 1: You couldn't help it. Let's stick to "israel". Oil money has nothing to do with our argument.

    Point 2: Leech is a bug - a parasite (para means outsider) which sticks on a foreign body and sucks its blood. It can grow into enormous size and can kill the animal. I was descriptive here of the society that in 1948 thrived on newly gained territory and looted houses". Not more not less.

    Point 3: You got me wrong, and by the way you used a ZRM quote (demeaning, distorting, and throwing blame on others). I am a pacifist, but I am not stupid, and I am at war, only I wish it would be a non-violent one, so don't take me for granted. I was saying we play a game -- assuming the UN in 2006 issues a resolution saying that "israel" should be divided into two (somewhat like the 1947 resolution) - how would you e have taken it. Would you have submitted?

    Point 3-b: thanks for admitting an "israeli" stagger. If you were an Arab in 1947, You too would have seen the UN resolution as vague, da da dad a. In history, retrospection is invalid. I was trying to say if you were in our shoes, you probably would have done the same given all the circumstances of the times. With one difference, "israel" did not exist in 1947; it leeched up starting mid-1948. I can say also add it Goliathed in 2006, and it will be "Davided" in due course.. You claim that we were mistaken in 1947…Well e, guess what, We ain't mistaken now, we want what’s ours, and we will get it… As lllllllllong as it takes.

    Point 3-c: I thought we agreed earlier that the right of return, Justified as it is, might not be practical from the "israeli" perspective – for the time being. Nonetheless, instead of putting an end to the process, "israel" was not willing to look into it. Amazingly, "israel" requires everyone to look at and accept its own plans. What better words to preach that your own??

    ِA confession, in retrospect, knowing what we know today= I believe the Arabs should have accepted the 1947 UN partition plan even though it was unfair to them. I agree with that statement, notwithstanding the "retrospective invalidity" of history. Also, if we could "see" back, we should have seen back before 1492 when the Arabs took in the Jewish displaced from Andalusia into their societies, they should have asked them to keep walking until they found the straight of Madagascar, then ask them to perform a miracle and split the sea into two, and you know the rest of the story...

    - ZRM Grading = pretty well, I'm sure you have the best kept for last..

    Point 4: Katsav is a worm -- well I have nothing against insects or crawling objects, and I do believe that all guilty should go to jail – and by order of harm, he comes last on my "wanted" list. In turn, our president is also a worm, but he still manages to keep his pants on (but not his dentures I guess!).

    Why don’t the Arabs give "israel" a good example?
    aa- Bloody Hell e, please count the number of UN resolutions against Arabs? Run some math, see the sequence, and then try to bluff someone who falls for a question of such insinuation.
    bb- As a reminder of aa, and again, Stop evading the issue.

    Point 5- You asked me what I thought of Wikepedia, and I answered. I never said you quoted Wikipedia. So, that proves I was trying to be objective, and you were trying to set me up.. Barely working!! The quotes in Rhiannon's articles and quotes are validated across any historic resource you go to. Actually, you can easily run by those of worse nature. But I'm glad your only problem with Rhiannon is the validation of his sources. I can do the homework, but please give me some time to do the research. Cite the quotations you contest, and I will gladly prove them from VALID, Proven, and uncontestable sources.

    But then again, what good will it do, at best, you can simple use Demeaning Method from the ZRM and say: Begin, Sharon, Ben Geurion are all worthless worms.

    I'd rather go clubbing on a Saturday night than do research...

    Why don’t you please proceed to prove the contrary? "You" are under trial.

    ReplyDelete
  89. e:

    There goes the grading / degrading:

    “Point 1: You couldn't help it. Let's stick to "israel". Oil money has nothing to do with our argument. “

    Of course it is important. If the multiplier effect is huge for $2B imagine what it should be for 1000 times that. It just shows that direct subsidies or oil windfalls are not as important as developing human capital which is your theory.

    “Point 2: Leech is a bug - a parasite (para means outsider) which sticks on a foreign body and sucks its blood. It can grow into enormous size and can kill the animal. I was descriptive here of the society that in 1948 thrived on newly gained territory and looted houses.”

    The Arabs decided to go to war in 47 and they suffered the consequences. When somebody loses a war that he initiated, the winner is not a leech. Gains from a justified war are not stealing. The Israelis are not leeches. They are winners of a justified war. The Arabs are not victims. They are losers of a war they initiated.

    “Point 3: You got me wrong, and by the way you used a ZRM quote (demeaning, distorting, and throwing blame on others). I am a pacifist, but I am not stupid, and I am at war, only I wish it would be a non-violent one, so don't take me for granted. I was saying we play a game -- assuming the UN in 2006 issues a resolution saying that "israel" should be divided into two (somewhat like the 1947 resolution) - how would you e have taken it. Would you have submitted?”

    You didn’t understand my answer. We would have debated it in Israel. You are right, I probably would be against it unless it meant economic sanctions. If the US+Europe would threaten economic sanctions, I might agree but my initial position is against it. BUT it would be clear to me that deciding to defy the international community has a price and that if war or sanctions ensued because Israel did not respect international resolutions, the responsibility for the consequences of the war are mine because I made the decision.

    The Arabs have a right to defy the international community and go to war as they did in 47. They don’t have a right to complain about the consequences. They should have taken the risks into account before starting down this path.

    “Point 3-b: thanks for admitting an "israeli" stagger. If you were an Arab in 1947, You too would have seen the UN resolution as vague, da da dad a. In history, retrospection is invalid. I was trying to say if you were in our shoes, you probably would have done the same given all the circumstances of the times. With one difference, "israel" did not exist in 1947; it leeched up starting mid-1948. I can say also add it Goliathed in 2006, and it will be "Davided" in due course.. You claim that we were mistaken in 1947…Well e, guess what, We ain't mistaken now, we want what’s ours, and we will get it… As lllllllllong as it takes.”

    Regarding leeching see above. When you lose wars you start, you pay a price. As for what you want, what exactly do you want?
    As for what the future will bring I am not a prophet. The Arabs made wrong projections about Israel since 48. I can only compare the progress of the Arabs in the last 60 years to that of the Israelis and make educated guesses. I am therefore very optimistic.

    “Point 3-c: I thought we agreed earlier that the right of return, Justified as it is, might not be practical from the "israeli" perspective – for the time being. Nonetheless, instead of putting an end to the process, "israel" was not willing to look into it. Amazingly, "israel" requires everyone to look at and accept its own plans. What better words to preach that your own??”

    Israel will not accept the right of return. It will mean the end Israel. We don’t want to end up like Lebanon or Iraq. What is there to look at? But we discussed this issue already and agreed to start without it and see what happens in the future.

    ِ”A confession, in retrospect, knowing what we know today= I believe the Arabs should have accepted the 1947 UN partition plan even though it was unfair to them. I agree with that statement, notwithstanding the "retrospective invalidity" of history. Also, if we could "see" back, we should have seen back before 1492 when the Arabs took in the Jewish displaced from Andalusia into their societies, they should have asked them to keep walking until they found the straight of Madagascar, then ask them to perform a miracle and split the sea into two, and you know the rest of the story”

    Great to hear you agree with the statement. It leaves hope for a future solution. The Muslims in 1492 were kind enough to take in Jews expelled from Spain and we are very appreciative of that. They did give them the marching orders in 1948 unfortunately.

    “Point 4: Katsav is a worm -- well I have nothing against insects or crawling objects, and I do believe that all guilty should go to jail – and by order of harm, he comes last on my "wanted" list. In turn, our president is also a worm, but he still manages to keep his pants on (but not his dentures I guess!).”

    Lahoud is your business but Katsav is mine. He is a disgrace and should resign. If you want to keep Lahoud because he keeps his pants on, that is your business.

    “Why don’t the Arabs give "israel" a good example?
    aa- Bloody Hell e, please count the number of UN resolutions against Arabs? Run some math, see the sequence, and then try to bluff someone who falls for a question of such insinuation.
    bb- As a reminder of aa, and again, Stop evading the issue.”

    Let me make this very clear. Israel does what it thinks is in its own interests. If there is a UN resolution that is non-binding and is against our interests, we won’t comply with it. See, no evading. If there is a binding resolution like 1701 which says we shouldn’t fly over Lebanon for example, but we deem it in our interest to continue flying we will consider the following: Do we have enough international support so that we will not suffer sanctions or other bad effects? We then weigh the sanctions against our interests and decide how to proceed. Lebanon does the same. HA is not disarming because they now there will not be any consequences to it. In 1947, the Arab states made the same kind of decision and decided to ignore a UN resolution. That decision was extremely costly. Israel is also paying a price for not complying with many UN resolutions. However, the price is small and is worth it when we balance it against our other interests.

    My point about reciprocity was simple. The reason for example Israel is not paying a price for its overflights in Lebanon despite 1701 is because HA has not complied with 1701 either. It strengthens Israel’s hand against the international community. If the Arabs were saints, there would have been much more international pressure on Israel.

    If you still think I am evading the issue, please let me know.

    “Point 5- You asked me what I thought of Wikepedia, and I answered. I never said you quoted Wikipedia. So, that proves I was trying to be objective, and you were trying to set me up.. Barely working!! The quotes in Rhiannon's articles and quotes are validated across any historic resource you go to. Actually, you can easily run by those of worse nature. But I'm glad your only problem with Rhiannon is the validation of his sources. I can do the homework, but please give me some time to do the research. Cite the quotations you contest, and I will gladly prove them from VALID, Proven, and uncontestable sources. “

    I didn’t ask you about wikipedia and I wasn’t setting you up. I asked and anybody can see it in the comments:
    “Fadi,
    Do you also think the wikipedia article is inaccurate?
    e”

    I was asking about this specific article. So do you think it is accurate? If not, which part is inaccurate? In my opinion it is very accurate.
    Rhiannon’s quotes are validated? Just like the one from wikipedia? Is that validated or not? Give me a break. She really doesn’t understand what she is quoting and often quotes racist and anti-Semitic sites and passes this as credible evidence. But it is nice of you to protect her.

    Israel is under trial? It is the Palestinians that don’t have a country and nobody cares. Do you see anybody bothered by what is happening in Gaza? Israel has international support. It is the Palestinians that have failed the trial of world opinion.

    e

    ReplyDelete
  90. ‘Israel’ has ALWAYS BEEN leech society. It cannot survive without the Americans and Europe. There would be NO ‘israel’ at all without the blood, guts, and whoring for cash from the Americans.

    Woodrow Wilson was the only American president who apologized to the public for his sickening involvement with the Zionist regime.


    ‘israel’ NEVER accepted the resolution and it only sat down to PRETEND TO negotiate. In fact ‘israel’ rejected the resolution and chose war. That is why the results of all illegal invasions and war is ‘israel’s responsibility. Always.


    ‘israel’ is filled with double standards and most of the people living in ‘israel’ are living a double standard life – maybe a triple standard life!

    Well what can you expect when the government of ‘israel’ is a racist warmongering entity bent on ruling by the double and triple standard?

    ReplyDelete
  91. Out of the whole bloody scheming mess which the European and American Zionist regime created in the Middle East, whatever suffering the people of ‘israel’ have is their own fault. The suffering they bring on themselves and the Arabs is THEIR COMPLETE responsibility.

    In reality and philosophically, as well as spiritually, ‘israel’ can never and has never won a war, nor will it ever be justified. EVER.

    ‘israel’ has been initiating, planning, and creating illegal invasions, massacres, thefts, and immoral imprisonment of Arabs and their children.

    ‘israel’ has created a Holocaust for Arabs since the 40s. ‘israel’ created the Holocaust for ‘iraq’.

    They will always be the losers of any war the initiate, because they really are not soldiers. They are just punks, thugs, street gangs who roam the territories beating up on little children and teenagers, boys or girls.

    Some soldiering!

    Pumping 13 bullets into a young Palestinian girl on her way home from school.

    Wow. Really brave.

    But this is the day in the life of an Israeli ‘soldier’.

    An abysmal product of his immoral government.

    Planted on a Mass Graveyard of Palestinian Men women and children.

    Whose land its zion gods Murdered and Stole for.

    ‘israel’ is a leech. From the beginning, Zionists stole, looted, and murdered for land that didn’t belong to them.

    All because they told naïve Christians that they were ‘God’s Chosen”

    Imagine a bunch of murdering, raping ‘soldiers’ considered to be God’s chosen.

    Pure LIE.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Rhiannon,

    In 1947 the Arabs decided on a military solution to the conflict. When you decide on a military solution, you better be sure you can win or at least not lose. Because they chose the military path, the Arabs are responsible for the results. All your ramblings cannot change the facts.

    I am a little offended that you stopped calling me by our special endearment name "little atheist Jew". Oh well, it was cute while it lasted.

    e

    ReplyDelete
  93. Since 'israel's fraudulent and gory existence IT has always used the military solution to the conflicts. 'israel can never win. It has been LOSING all these years.

    No country can survive with so much vicious, bloody warmongering as does 'israel' and hope to continue without paying a severe price.

    'israel' is and always will be responsible for the results.

    All your ramblings cannot change the facts.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Rhiannon,
    Let's wait patiently for the future and see what it will bring.
    Yours,
    little Jew atheist

    ReplyDelete
  95. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  96. e,

    You said all I wanted to hear the way I wanted to hear it.

    Perhaps you can do me the honour of commenting on my forthcoming article.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Fadi,
    I am glad that my answer was clear and to your liking.
    I still feel that you are evading one question:
    Is the wikipedia article about the UN partition accurate or not? If not, in what detail?
    e

    ReplyDelete
  98. Oh e! You're too kind!

    I said I heard what I "Wanted" to hear, I didn't say I liked it, or that I buy it!

    As for evasion, probably its partly due to my genetic "Jewish" lineage, I guess that is a good enough explanation for the tendency. But I stand humbled and in awe in front of yours -

    I also stand smiling...If there were ever a truer or more honest exposee of the inner mind of an "Israeli"?

    Finally, despite all your best efforts, you spelled out what I wanted to hear - we have an uncovered a land-mine site, but better see it as one that mistake it for a bed of roses!!!

    Now we have to figure out a way to deal with that, but then again, let's wait patiently for the future..

    I wouldn't wait if I were you!! For the future, I mean.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Fadi,

    Still more evasion. I am getting a feeling that you are uncomfortable with the question. It is really a very simple one:
    Is the wikipedia article about the UN partition accurate or not? If not, in what detail?

    Now that you have exposed my inner mind and I am an open book in front of you, why can't you answer it? What have you got to hide?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  100. Wikepedia, as I have discovered, is really a zionist creation.

    It never ends!

    So.

    The part that you keep beating everybody up about is the part you like.

    That part wasn't the truth.

    Figures.

    So my little wikepedia egghead....how many posts are you gonna badger us with until we tell you WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR.

    It won't happen.

    But you can dream.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Bonjour e,

    You skillfully try to shift the dialogue from Israel on Trial to Wikipedia on trial.

    Where do you stand on the Beit Hanoun Massacre. How do dead civilians serve the "Israeli" best interests? Or are they a sacrifice to Jahova by one fanatic General before the upcoming religious season?

    Debate that fact before you jump to future hypthesis or past inexistentialities.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Rhiannon:

    That explains the Wiki in Wikipedia:
    Wicked?!

    e:
    From an academic point of view, again, since Wikipedia is a source of information open to cut, past, apply variation, addition, deletion, distortion, and reassembly of facts, I agree it shows extreme similarities to the Zionist Sources.

    I have a confession in return, the Elders of Zion are our invention, just like Hanna Berberi the Lebanese descendants launched the Flinstones back in the good old days.

    loll...

    ReplyDelete
  103. Fadi,
    You ask:
    "Where do you stand on the Beit Hanoun Massacre. How do dead civilians serve the "Israeli" best interests? Or are they a sacrifice to Jahova by one fanatic General before the upcoming religious season?"

    What happened in Beit Hannoun is a tragic mistake that should not have happened. It was a stupid mistake that cost innocent lives.

    But how is that related to the simple question that you keep evading:
    Is the wikipedia article about the UN partition accurate or not? If not, in what detail?

    The question is not about wikipedia. It is about historical facts portrayed in a specific wikipedia article. I am not asking about what you think about wikipedia. I am asking if you agree to the historical facts in ONE specific article.

    Saying that you "I agree it shows extreme similarities to the Zionist Sources" is still an evasion because you haven't said whether you agree with the facts, just that Zionists like me agree to them (which is true).

    So Fadi, why is it so difficult for you to say whether you agree with facts in the UN partition article or not? If you don't agree, why are you so reluctant to say you don't? Are you afraid to look irrational by denying undisputable historical facts?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  104. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. Do you think it is irrational to deny undisputable historical facts?

    ReplyDelete
  105. "What happened in Beit Hannoun is a tragic mistake that should not have happened. It was a stupid mistake that cost innocent lives."

    ===========

    See what happens, Fadi? We order Steak, roasted potatoes, artichokes smothered in butter, and what do we get instead?

    A bowl of stale frootloops, from the zionist kitchen.

    ============

    YOU JUST ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION ABOUT ZIONIST WIKIPEDIA

    ReplyDelete
  106. "What happened in Beit Hannoun is a tragic mistake"

    Which equals

    "We are very sorry about Qana, but it was "mistake".

    Which equals


    'The Arabs don't want dialogue in peace, but we, the israelis do"

    Which equals

    "The majority of jews agreed to the UN partition of 47"

    Which means:

    FALSE ON ALL COUNTS.

    Just more stale bowls of Frootloops served on huge dinner platters in the Zionist Houses of Wax, Cards, Mirrors and Horrors.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Fadi,
    I see that you have conceded the debate. If your argument is based on falsifying history, then you have no leg to stand on.
    The question I ask is so simple and your inability to answer it proves that your position is fundamentally wrong.
    Why don't you try answering it truthfully as Socrates would have:
    Is the wikipedia article about the UN partition accurate or not? If not, in what detail?

    e

    ReplyDelete
  108. Fadi,

    your 'friend' is like a retarded little mongrel. "IT" will continue to beat you up forever on the wikepedia frootloops after we just answered 750 times.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Now "IT" dares to bring up Socrates - I suppose Socrates was a jew, also? More Frootloops to swig down as they are very soggy, indeed.

    Of course! THat is what all the zionists like to say! The BEST belong to them (sic).

    Did Einstein belong to 'israel' and the Zionists?

    You wish! In your zionist dreams!

    ReplyDelete
  110. Rhianoon,
    I think I prefer "little atheist Jew" to "retarded little mongrel" but will accept what works best for you.

    It is well known that Einstein was one of many famous 20th century Arab scientists and was in no way or form associated with any Zionists (except maybe Weizmann, the first President of Israel who was his friend). Oh yes, he also founded with Weizmann the Hebrew University in Jerusalem where I studied. Founding a Jewish university in Jerusalem? What was he thinking? Maybe he was an Arab Zionist after all?

    Little Atheist Jew

    ReplyDelete
  111. Rhiannon,
    You will love this:
    "Einstein bequeathed his estate, as well as the use of his image (see personality rights), to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.[66] Einstein actively supported the university during his life and this support continues with the royalties received from licensing activities. The Roger Richman Agency licences the commercial use of the name "Albert Einstein" and associated imagery and likenesses of Einstein, as agent for the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. As head licensee the agency can control commercial usage of Einstein's name which does not comply with certain standards (e.g., when Einstein's name is used as a trademark, the ™ symbol must be used).[67] As of May, 2005, the Roger Richman Agency was acquired by Corbis"

    Every time an Arab uses an image of Einstein, it helps a Zionist university. Thank you for liking Einstein and supporting my studies! I wish all Arabs were like him!

    Little Atheist Jew

    ReplyDelete
  112. Who do you love?

    Norman Finkelstein?
    Ilan Pappe?
    Dr. Alfred Lillienthal?

    ===========

    In this segment excerpts from Dr. Lillienthal's book are reproduced, which also contain some quotes from Einstein.

    The 850+ page book is a MUST READ for anyone seeking to understand the Zionism, Israel, modern media, the Middle East, US political apparatus and much more.

    Lilienthal thoroughly documented all references.

    According to Lilienthal, many American Jews did not envision Israel as an exclusivist Zionist/Jewish entity.

    Point of note and also in contrast; despite his wholehearted support for the Jews to reclaim their dignity and security, Einstein was a universalist.


    Despite being an eminent newspaper, the New York Times' Zionist bias is all too well known.

    Lilienthal provides a detailed account of NYT's role in "KIDNAPPING OF EINSTEIN FOR ISRAEL."

    "I also personally endeavored to set the Times' record straight on one rather important matter--THE EXPLOITATION OF DR. ALBERT EINSTEIN BY THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT.

    When the greatest scientist of our age died on April 18, 1956, at the age of seventy-six, the Times in the course of its eulogy referred to 'Israel, whose establishment as a state he had championed.'

    This 'kidnapping' of Einstein for Israel was one of the most extraordinary coups ever perpetrated by any political group anywhere, BUT WITH THE HELP OF THE OMNIPOTENT TIMES ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

    The great mathematician had VIGOROUSLY OPPOSED THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, BUT A MYTH TO THE CONTRARY HAS BEEN WIDELY SPAWNED BY THE MEDIA, AND WAS REPEATED SIXTEEN YEARS LATER.

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  113. What I love rhiannon is antizionists like you adoring Einstein who donated all his estate to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, a leading symbol of the success of the Zionist ideology. I find it amusing, what can I say?

    Little Atheist Jew

    ReplyDelete
  114. In late March 1972 the New York Times published a series of articles dealing with the life and thought of Albert Einstein as allegedly revealed in the collection of his manuscripts, letters, and other papers, which were to be published by his estate.


    The third of the series included on the front page a three-column photograph of Einstein with Israeli Premier David Ben-Gurion, and the caption read: 'Einstein papers tell of scientist's efforts toward the creation of Israel.'

    The article further referred 'to his long efforts in behalf of the creation of a Jewish national state and of his sad refusal' to accept the Presidency upon the death of Chaim Weizmann.

    EINSTEIN, DESPITE THE TIME'S INCESSANT RECITALS TO THE CONTRARY, CLEARLY OPPOSED THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

    A clear understanding of the position taken on Palestine by the great mathematician, himself a refugee from Nazi Germany, will not only set the record straight and correct journalistic inaccuracies, but is most relevant to the continuing quest for a just peace in the Middle East." [pp. 340-341]

    What was really Einstein’s view regarding the creation of the State of Israel?

    Dr. Lilienthal went to Princeton to see Einstein and pose the question directly to him.

    "Then, in 1952, in a message to a 'Children to Palestine' dinner, Einstein spoke of the NECESSITY OF CURBING 'A KIND OF NATIONALISM WHICH HAS ARISEN IN ISRAEL IF ONLY TO PERMIT A FRIENDLY AND FRUITFUL CO-EXISTENCE WITH THE ARABS.'


    When this portion of the Einstein message WAS CENSORED IN THE ORGANIZATION'S PRESS RELEASE SO AS TO IMPART THE IMPRESSION OF ALL-OUT SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL, I went to Princeton to seek the Professor's views on the incident.

    EINSTEIN THEN TOLD ME THAT HE HAD NEVER BEEN A ZIONIST AND HAD NEVER FAVORED THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.[IV]

    It was then that he also told me of a significant conversation with Weizmann. Einstein had asked him: 'What of the Arabs if Palestine were given to the Jews?'

    And Weizmann replied: 'What Arabs? They are hardly of any consequence.' " [p. 341]

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  115. Your self delusion is amazing. Why would Einstein leave all his estate to a Zioinst university in the state of Israel; one that is one of the most important Zionist symbols, if he was against the state of Israel or Zionism? It makes no sense whatsoever. In his last act he confirmed what he was all his life, a Zionist.

    Litlle Atheist Jew

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  116. E,

    I certainly did not cede the discussion, but I am exercising the same rights of evasion you have done all through. I do not feel obliged to respond when I do not get answers. Apply "accusation of silence as incriminating evidence" into the ZRM.

    If you find it frustrating, then you know how I would feel when I ask a question and get an accusation instead – from the one on trial!! I don’t end up with an answer. Allegories, resemblances, and the rest of the "draw-similarities" to escape responsibility are not relevant in my opinion to the discussion, neither pressure, most certainly!

    Then I find myself debating with a racist person – now THAT is where I lose my temper; in a way, in her rage, Rhiannon seems to get you off-guard? To your racist comments, I can say: if only all Jews built universities instead of colonies, the world would be a better place. If Einstein built a university, perhaps he was trying to instill some sense to the hoards of colonialist outcasts, the Ghetto cavemen of Europe, the "demons" of Hitler, the "Dirt" (Vichy), fleeing from Europe to leech on somebody else blood and land, and then call themselves superior. Nice Try Shlomo! How's that for a starter?

    In response to your funny statement, "Israel has international support," it is perhaps the world is exercising containment & confinement policy; perhaps they were exercising the "dumpsite policy." Could it be they did not want a bunch of Zionist blood drinking mongers running in their streets spreading evil and decadence eating Christian babies for their Easter festivities? You can ask them, how would WE KNOW? We're megre Arabs!

    Next time you throw a racist comment, make sure you remember you ancestors wore yellow branding, sat on donkey backwards, and remember how if would feel to sit at a back of bus, and how your illustrious Jewish scientists were herded into concentration camps like cattle. It was in the glorious USA – Einstein's adopted country that the "No Blacks, No Jews, No Dogs" signs were hung. It was from Einstein's home country (& yours) that they were murdered and humiliated. How dare you be racist after this? One of three options: It was all a lie, you are a hypocrite, or you're JUST about to apologize to YOURSELF before you do to anyone else.

    Maybe the Arabs were not scientists (sic), but they weren't those who turned "your people" into soap bars either. So next time you mention Arabs, try to be respectful, realistic, and count your blessings. Net time you try to flaunt your superiority, think that you could have been sod or fertilizer because over thousands of years, closed minded lunatics gave themselves that right to crack a "joke," that could turn serious one day, and that COULD turn serious in the future.

    If Einstein knew what the so called "Israel" would turn into, or what the Hebrew University could yield, he probably would have recommended testing the first atomic bomb on campus SITE, and set his own property on FIRE.

    Shame!

    ReplyDelete
  117. Fadi,

    Which questions did I evade? Please ask them again.

    What racist comment are you talking about? Just quote my racist comment please. I have not made any racist comment and you are inventing things.

    And please don't forget to answer my questions also. Evading does not help advance the argument. It is such a simple question, and the fact you cannot answer it, or even attmept a good try, shows how weak your position is:
    Is the wikipedia article about the UN partition accurate or not? If not, in what detail?

    e

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  118. Hey Fadi,

    What questions is "IT" talking about? I don't know any of questions. Do you remember any questions asked of you?

    What questions are these?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Hey Fadi,

    'IT" says we are not ADVANCING the argument.

    Gee, that's funny.

    I could have sworn we were having a nice warm fuzzy conversation over hot steaming mugs of Palestinian-Lebanese blood.

    Fadi, what do you suppose "IT" means by saying you are INVENTING things.

    What things are being 'invented'?

    The only invention I have seen is this so-called 'jew' claims to be a "chosen" one.

    But Fadi, "IT" doesn't even believe in God, Jesus, or the other prophets.

    What INVENTION is this? To be a 'chosen" one and at the same time commit murder, rape, and theft of a land and people.

    Sounds to me that "IT" and its ilk invented those peanut butter and kethchup sandwiches.

    Now this ridiculous 'INVENTION' of a notion that Einstein was an atheist.

    Nothing like soggy peanut butter and ketchup sandwiches to go with all that Palestinian and Lebanese blood.

    Just the way the fake jews like it.

    Perhaps a patent to go with?

    ReplyDelete
  120. It is well known that Einstein was one of many famous 20th century Arab scientists ....

    [refer earlier comment on supremist complexes]
    +

    I compare the achievements of Israel relative to the Arab countries over the last 60 years, I can only be optimistic about the future.
    [achievements of Israel: genocide, war crimes, invasions, defense industry, blood diamonds, white slavery, resource robbery.. ACHIEVMENTS INDEED.. ISRAEL ISRAEL UBER ALLES - you NAZI?]
    +

    When the Arabs stop fighting among themselves, adopt liberal democracies and advance technologically, then I will be worried.

    [? - tell me, is a Falasha jew your equvillant or do you dump his/her blood in trash bins ?]
    +

    The Arabs didn't understand that they made a mistake ...

    [yes,, the arabs are so thick headed they cannot just grasp that this loving people who are killing them day and night just WANTED PEACE.. STUPID ARABS?.. and the "Israelis" dont understand that they are murderere, worse, they think they are saints? Guess what, there's an arabic saying that Goes, a whore is most fluent when preeching chastity.]


    +

    Every time an Arab uses an image of Einstein, it helps a Zionist university. Thank you for liking Einstein and supporting my studies! I wish all Arabs were like him!

    [huh?]
    +
    If the Arabs were saints, there would have been much more international pressure on Israel.

    [oh yes, and if Hitler was not a saint, the world wouldn't have stood by for years why the Jews turned into fertilizer? How's that for an argument on international support? Reminder: the same world who stands blind to one crime, stands blind to the other.. so don't celebrate just yet!]

    +
    It is the Palestinians that don’t have a country and nobody cares. Do you see anybody bothered by what is happening in Gaza?

    ["nobody" cares. well guess what, you're wrong, WE care, and WE are bothered. If you're not bothered by what Israel has done to Gaza and to West Bank and to Lebanon, then I'm afraid you are "nobody" in your own words] Nobody cared while Jews turned into SOD in the 1940s, then the world woke up. The Jewish refugee ships were turned back in mid-ocean.. NOBODY cared.. how's that for a comparison?]

    Keep teaching the world not to care, and when it's your turn once more, you can go to the weeping wall for one last time and kiss it goodbye- time permitting???


    I'm sure you have a good explanation. Give it a shot...

    How appropriate a phrase.. a shot.

    Replace the word Arabs with "Blacks," or why not "Niggers," or why not "Judens," or why not "Latinos," and tell me if it sounds right after a while?

    Guess what, it doesn't.
    Guess what, it's anti-semitic,
    Guess what, you will pay for your own words with your own hands.

    Guess what, I cannot find any article on the Wikipedia you are referring too, someone must have deleted it?

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  121. Hey Rhian,

    That sandwich is already marketed around the world, they call it self-defense..

    But it just turned sour!

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  122. Fadi,
    If you cannot bear to look frankly at the accomplishments of the Arabs in the last 100 years, it is not my problem. But it is relevant to the discussion because if the Arabs would have historically chosen to develop their human capital, we wouldn't be where we are today. We would have had peace a long time ago.

    There is no difference between Jews and Arabs and the fact that Israel was able to achieve what it has is proof that if the Arabs would have invested in human capital, they would have been at least as strong economically and technologically as Israel and maybe stronger. This is the sad truth that you don't want to accept and for some reason are offended when this is pointed out.

    All what you quoted of me is not pleasant to your years but it is just facts. That there was no promiment Arab scientist in the 20th century is a sad fact but it is not any baseless generalization about Arabs just as saying that there was no prominent Nigerian scientist in the 20th century is a fact and not racist.

    If you don't like this fact, make sure that there are prominent Arab scientists in the 21st century. If you keep looking at Israel as the excuse, that will never happen.

    e

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  123. What is REALLY sad is that a lot of "ITS" own cannot stand anything about 'israel' and what 'israel' stands for.

    Which is why they stopped being Zionists.

    THey woke up and saw the light.

    All 'israel' will ever be is a big fat leech.

    Without all that host blood to help shed Middle Eastern children blood, - which is all 'israel' can accomplish - israel is just a shell of an empty bug.

    A complete mockery created by phoney creation of God's "Chosen" in the 20th and 21rst century.

    Yes Fadi, the zionist sandwiches are mighty SOUR.

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  124. Fadi,
    Now let's get back to the debate.
    Please answer the simple question:

    Is the wikipedia article about the UN partition accurate or not? If not, in what detail?

    Why won't you even attempt answering the question? Come on, give it a try. It really is such a simple question. People reading this thread would like to know what your position is on this.

    e

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  125. Fadi,
    I would like to remind you of what you said in an earlier post:
    "I intentioanlly like to stab into depth of subjects to either dust them off, or to terminate them. Bring them on, let's kill all the misconceptions."

    I totally agree. So please answer my question.

    e

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  126. Rhiannon,
    In an earlier post you said:
    "You have caused a huge uproarious ripple of laughter as I copy-paste your words defining yourself as an atheist jew on other blogs."

    I asked several times for the name of the blogs. Why can't you post them? I would like to read people's responses.

    Thank you,
    Little Atheist Jew

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  127. e,

    I think know enough of you to avoid going into depth of things. There is no way out of this except war. I'm sorry for that, but you leave no room for dialogue. I can say this though out as politely as I can, SCREW the 1947 UN resolution. Sorry ladies, I apologize for using the word "resolution."

    History – on your part was a large mistake on the human-rights and a disgrace to human dignity or rights, or to ethics. Yet, you claim being victorious. While I keep upholding my views that human life is sacred and should not be demeaned by war and blood shed, you leave no choice to yourself but your false claims and false views of history.

    Guess what buddy, lying bloodsuckers that are the Zionist mobs got their way once, fooled the world some of the time, but they wont do that all of the time, or forever. Unfortunately, they cannot see beyond their noses.

    When buses blow up in Tel Aviv and Le Zion Richeon right next to your home, you should know that the end is coming eventually, YOUR end. You should also know that you and us had the chance to stop this while you could be opening up for dialogue and giving up the fallacies and the false victim playing and string of lies. Guess what, despite all of our attempts, you are incorrigible, serves you right what you get yourselves into.

    When the Palestinians storm back into their land, you, or your bloody handed -bloody minded descendants will pay the price of your arrogance.

    In respect to my "Arab Jewish" lineage, I will conclude with this phrase from Exodus - "Wherever hurt is done, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound."

    It's a two way formula by the way!
    You do the math.

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  128. Fadi,

    Saying that somebody is lying without backing it, is not an argument, it is propoganda. Just tell me where I am lying and we will discuss that issue.

    Being afraid to go into detail in an issue shows you are not confident of your views or don't have a good argument.

    Choosing only parts of history that are to your liking without looking at the whole picture is not a way forward in an honest debate.

    Repeating the cliches that Arabs have made for 100 years is not going to get you anywhere either. Endorsing suicide bombing and threatening me is no way to get sympathy for your cause.

    You know what, why don't you ask me a question and we can debate that?

    e

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  129. To the sad and lethargic "IT" from the House of Horrors, I mean 'israel'. Well same thing.

    Let's wait patiently for the future and see what it will bring.

    R.

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  130. Rhiannon,
    I am happy to see that at least on one thing we agree. I sincerely hope that in the 21st century there will be at least one Arab Einstein and hopefully you are working towards achieving this goal. I sincerely hope that in the 21st century there will be at least one Arab university ranked among the top 100 in the world and that you are working towards this goal. I sincerely hope that the Arabs raise their adult literacy rate above the current 70% to near 100%. I sincerely hope women are integrated into the workforce in the Arab world and given the same education as men. I sincerely hope that educated Arabs stay in the middle east and improve it instead of immigrating to other countries.

    There are many more things I sincerely hope for. Unfortunately, for you the future involves only one issue and this clouds your vision.

    e

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  131. e,

    I have a small confession. I just pulled a game on you to try to get a few points across. I was trying to explain how "we" view things. If you just replaced the word "Arabs" with "Zionists" you would get our point through CLEARLY.

    You say: Saying that somebody is lying without backing it, is not an argument, it is propaganda. Just tell me where I am lying and we will discuss that issue.

    "Israel" has, since its inception, used Propaganda. Now we both agree that throwing accusations that are not constructive, can of course distort the discussion, but do not change facts. "Israel" is a master of Propaganda.

    You say: Being afraid to go into detail in an issue shows you are not confident of your views or don't have a good argument.

    How much into detail of issue by issue would you like to go. Once things get into a critical point, you immediately jump away. I repeatedly tried to tell you, let us discuss "Israel," and we can later discuss other issues. A melange of issue creates babble, not results.


    You say: Choosing only parts of history that are to your liking without looking at the whole picture is not a way forward in an honest debate.

    I bow to that statement. History (and that is my field), is related to social, economic, cultural, environmental, and political factors. We are not debating why things happen, we were assessing things in a certain perspective to move things forward, not to exchange accusations. If we assume that the "Israeli"-Palestinian issue is a body with two hands, I was simply proposing to deal with the "Israeli" faults - Simply because, while Arabs were not faultless, I was proposing to go Chronologically, I think we should disentangle the issues one by one, and "cure" them accordingly.

    You Say: Repeating the cliches that Arabs have made for 100 years is not going to get you anywhere either.

    I say, repeating the clichés that Zionists have made for 100 years is not going to get you anywhere. Now we are in agreement.


    Endorsing suicide bombing and threatening me is no way to get sympathy for your cause.

    Endorsing a war on my country, and actually threatening my life, and the life of my family, loved ones, and friends in July and August was no way to get sympathy for "your" cause – KHIZBOLLAH or no KHIZBOLLAH, Devil or no devil, Iran or no Iran, lovingly or not unlovingly no matter what the cause. Anyway, call it a small demo of your state's own crafts. I repeatedly tried to explain that the alternatives are destructive, (please read what I said). You read it as a threat; I read it as a fact-waiting-to happen. See the difference. I am crying wolf because THERE IS A WOLF. It is heading your way. I'm not saying we won't hurt, let me worry about that. I was saying that by the time we're done with you if things go bad, the results are devastating. If you claim you are as powerful as you are to destroy, then you should be aware that power is a two way sword. I'm not saying the "Israel" will blow itself up using its own nuclear arsenal (hmm…) but I am saying that arrogance and mulishness will create a shock wave back. Hatred, fear, pain, humiliation, murder, genocide aggravate. If they are coming stronger from your side, you should be careful that when it snaps back at you, there won't be anybody of you left to tell.

    Oh, by the way, don’t play victim please, or if you plan to do that, keep us a side of the Wailing Wall for our own Madonna Act 


    When I saw that we were not going anywhere, I thought I'd scare you with the alternative, war. I'm glad you are sensible enough to look into what I wrote.

    Warning: Evading the 1947 WAS on PURPOSE. We Arabs have been asking some questions repeatedly. All we wanted was a YES or NO. All I had to do is pull one trick of "I have the right to remain silent," and I began to antagonize you, more or less! Again, "Israel'' is a master of that.

    I told you I'm part "Jewish," Genetically! Only I can be devious in a constructive manner. Of course, if I blow it up, it can be for the same reason as well.

    You say: You know what, why don't you ask me a question and we can debate that?

    Before I do that, We can start with this: Do you understand the above?

    - Yes, or No.

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  132. Fadi,
    You say:
    "Israel" has, since its inception, used Propaganda. Now we both agree that throwing accusations that are not constructive, can of course distort the discussion, but do not change facts. "Israel" is a master of Propaganda.

    Instead of making this general proclamation that I don't agree with, why don't you say: Here is a piece of propoganda that Israel is making. Specify what propaganda you are talking about and then we can discuss it. Don't make a general declaration, make an argument supported by facts.

    Let's discuss Israel then, what propaganda is Israel perpetuating? Give me concrete examples and let's discuss them. If there are such examples I will change my mind. No babble, just this one specific point.

    e

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  133. e,

    I think I got a question, I need to clarify before we go any further that you acknowledge what I wrote, and understand it clearly.

    Hence, your only point of disagreement was that "Israel" did not use propaganda?

    I'm not playing a game here, I just need to set the limits of this discussion.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Fadi,
    I understand what you wrote but agree to very little of it.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  135. To clarify, the propoganda issue is one of many issues I don't agree with. It was the first, so I addressed it.
    e

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  136. I also need to know your first name, your age, sex, marital status, and the colony you live in. You dont have a blog, and I would like to know whom I'm talking to.

    Demo below:
    My name is Fadi, I'm male, 31, single and willing, I live in the city of Saida.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Fadi,
    Why don't you make a new blog entry on the propoganda issue?
    This comment section is getting long.
    e

    ReplyDelete
  138. My name is Ephraim (male), I am 28, I am married with children and I live in the colony of Ramat-Hasharon (a really nice one at that) even though I use my company's servers in New Jersey to surf the net.

    ReplyDelete